35 replies to this topic

[wild20]

That is right! I was reading a religious book about how drums have gotten into the christian churches. This guy says that the one that is dangerous is the trap set. It originated out of west Africa. It was a type of style and beat that only the modern trap can make. It is used in rock and roll, and jazz. The people there used this beat to call up the "spirit". Get this, there are some really good drummers out there that say there are to sides or voices to the drum. One is the sound, the other the voice of the "spirit" that uses the drummer to make music. One previous drummer said that by drumming or listening to this kind of drum, it ultimately ends in demon possession. Let me also tell you what the terms rock and roll, and jazz came from.

Rock and Roll= have sex in the back of a car. That is right. This should be very unattractive to anyone that has any morals I know this seems a little graphic, but it has to be included. I mean, who knew?

Jazz= you want to have sex with someone. What is the matter with people? Who accepted this stuff? And we let kids listen to this stuff? I would highly advise anyone who listens to rock and roll and jazz to reconsider! It isn't okay to listen to it once a week, or once a month, it is wrong. I have stopped. Think about it.

[truefusion]

If that's what rock and roll, and jazz means, then i can only imagine what rap, and other genres mean...

[biscuitrat]

Although the fact that it's a religious book makes me automatically think it's biased. Who cares what the origins of it were? It's good stuff today. I would hate to limit my kid to listening to classical music, the occasional musical (no rock operas for you, kiddy!), and very rarely any country. Oh, but there's "Christian" rock. Is that OK to listen to? Because it's Christian, is it automatically filled with morals?

What makes me sort of upset is that you say it's wrong. So I can't listen to Led Zeppelin or the Beatles? I can't play a bit of Cake or Weezer while I work? Is this another one of those "I have morals and you don't because you have different tastes from me" debates?

Yes, I thought about it. It doesn't make sense to stop something altogether because of its origins. All of you extremely orthodox religious people can do what you like, but a name is a name and that's all. I'm 15 - I may not have great taste in anything but at least I do have morals that don't extremely exaggerate things like this. What's with you people? It's music, nothing more. So there may not be choirs of angels for me (choirs are annoying already T_T) when I die, but at least I'll get a taste of my beautiful Doors before I kick it.

Besides, isn't Sex, Drugs, and Sex in the back of a car a little redundant?

[Cerb]

Biscuitrat made many good points. The origins have little to do with anything. Christians used to burn people for being witches, start religious wars, etc. Because they used to do that, does it mean that Christianity is immoral?

It's complete idiocy to state that rock and jazz are un-christian. I, myself, am a Christian, and jazz happens to be one of my favorite genres of music. As a matter of fact, I'm sitting here listening to Pat Metheny as I type this out.

biscuitrat said:

Besides, isn't Sex, Drugs, and Sex in the back of a car a little redundant?

Good point

P.S. Wasn't the word 'Jazz' used as a term for sex after it had been used for years to describe the music. Don't believe everything you hear, pal.

EDIT: Fixed quote tag.

Edited by snlildude87, 12 September 2005 - 02:44 AM.

[wild20]

You guys are forgetting something though, I didn't say that christian music or rock is okay. And biscuit, no, this is not something stating I am better, or have morals. Because I don't. But you also are forgetting that the devil will seek a hold where ever he can get one. The fact that it was used to call spirits alone should make you not want to listen to it. I believe even the athiest knows what demon possession is. Let me clarify it for you. My grandfather was a pastor, he saw demon possession. The horror of it is awful. He watched people nearly get killed before they were given up. And trust me, it was only because of jesus' saving power. To put it short, people were thrown against walls, and badly hurt. Now, all I can say, is that the reason I am doing this is because I will not, sit back and watch the subtle changes happen. Would it bother you to know that this could happen to you? I know it isn't a pretty topic, but if it did happen, and I hadn't told you about it, I would feel guilt on my part because I could have warned you. If you saw someone that was about to kill themselves doing something that they didn't know was stupid, would you sit back and watch them die, for something you could have tried to prevent? Of course, you can't make them not do something, but that is their mistake. If it has the trap set in it, I would listen to it. Thats all I am saying. Better safe than sorry!

[OCAC]

Sorry, but the bible is full of references to drumming and listening to music - just read the Psalms!!!

I also think it is an oversimplificaton to assume that only listening to Jazz will want to make a woman hop into bed with you. That has never worked with me. Jazz is far to nervous for that in my listening.

If you think, that certain influences should be banned, than I think you are mistrusting God, who gave us free will afterall. People that want to ban music, because of the label that is attached are distorting Gods creative influence. Who are you, who am I, who is that author, to say that Jazz or R&R music cannot lead to a better understanding and appreciation of Gods creation?

I have seen more people loose their faith due to bad preaching and indecent behaviour of the elder and priests than due to Rock&Roll or Jazz - and I have spoken to lots of people.

[biscuitrat]

They're only "drums". It's only "music". You can't be possessed by a rhythm. I for one barely believe in possession. At any rate, it's still bogus to me. Perhaps this is because all references to "god" that you make are actually references to Jesus. Not my god, not my concern, not my belief. I know my culture uses drums and pipes frequently simply to play music (usually devotional music) and to entertain. There's nothing remotely demonic about it. Sometimes I wish certain beliefs would just modernize themselves.

The thing about drums and spirits: OK, I believe that my trombone has a voice of its own. That doesn't mean it's going to come out and possess me and cause me to make all sorts of glissandos. Drummers believe each of their drums has a special voice, and by this, they mean its pitch or its tendency to create certain effects. That would be the "spirit" of the drum. It's not a literal ghost living inside a drum waiting to eat the hapless drummer. It's an allusion, nothing more.

So stop acting so afraid of it. It's a drum, it makes music, it's not satanic. Rock and jazz are perfectly all right to listen to, regardless of their prior implications. Heck, Austrailia started out as a penal colony - does that mean the people who live there today are all prisoners? Not everything you read is actually true or can be interpreted as true - just a warning.

[wild20]

Okay, you guys are a little mixed up. Let me rephrase. It is where jazz and rock and roll come from and their original meaning. Thats the problem. And drums mentioned in the bible were a little different. They were nothing like the drums today. And I didn't say all drums, I said the TRAP SET.

OCAC: Are you saying than, it is okay to kill to better understand god's creation, or watch porn, to better understand creation? That argument can be applied to many different things.

Biscuit: Did I say I was afrain? Maybe scared, but not in a way that is fearful! And I am talking about two spirits. Yes, the spirit of the drum, and the other, a spiritual spirit. The person who said this, actually said, it was a evil angel. There is a board, I can't remember it's name, that you put your hand on it, it rises off the floor and you ask questions and text appears to answer it. This is the devil. Now will you say that it is okay to mess round with it? That the board won't possess you simply by touching it? You are being to skeptical. You can't believe everything you hear, like UFOs, but you must at least research, the ones that could mess with your eternal life.

[biscuitrat]

Still, the Bible apparently takes place around 2,000 years ago, and up till about 10,000 years, which contradicts scientific history, but whatever. That's 2,000 years of tradition that's been literally interpreted and maybe then, it was a scary thing - but in this day and age, we have a lot more to be afraid of than ghostly drums.

Is the board you mentioned a Ouija board? Because other than for cheap thrills and a fright that lasts maybe a minute at a slumber party, there's nothing harmful about it. Just because something levitates doesn't mean it's the devil. I believe the supernatural and the devil have nothing to do with one another. The devil symbolizes the evil and vice and sin within a Christian belief system - as long as my religion maintains its devil-free outlook, I'm not worried about it. Quite frankly, I'm more afraid than UFOs because it seems a closer possibility. I believe there is life on other planets and one of these days, we might meet them or vice versa.

Also, fear is being afraid of being afraid - it's the fear of the suspense filling that moment. If I'm the one being skeptical, why are you the one trying to accuse a trap set of being evil and possessed? It's inanimate for crying out loud. Possession usually only applies to something that is animate and that previously had control over itself.

[Cerb]

Plus, one must remember that, according to the Bible, Satan is not allowed to possess a being without permission from God. Also, one who believes in God is far more powerful than Satan.

[biscuitrat]

Cerb, on Sep 12 2005, 08:16 PM, said:

Plus, one must remember that, according to the Bible, Satan is not allowed to possess a being without permission from God. Also, one who believes in God is far more powerful than Satan.

That's kind of odd now that you mention it because all these supposed possessions - were they just a way of saying that "you're not on the safe list anymore"? And possessions can happen to the fervent religious as well as non-believers. Heck, you could be a pastor and still be at "risk" for it.

Although I still hold my ground on the animate/inanimate debate.

[truefusion]

Usually the ones that seek religion for a form of protection have a higher risk of being possessed than normal folk. Evil spirits/Demons seek out the weakest of the kind. Evil spirits/Demons can only possess living things, they can not possess non-living things, they can only manipulate the non-living.

[wild20]

Yes that is it Biscuit. An Ouija Board. And let me ask you, how does it get off the ground? It is utterly foolish to deny that there is supernatural beings out there. Therefore, there must be a good side and bad. And Cerb, you say that God has to okay possession by a demon. You are right. When you deny God, you are saying, I don't want to be with you. You are either on one side, or the other, not in an in between area. So by denying God, He is forced, to allow you to be taken over. Not that you will, but He cannot protect you any more, unless you still have a hold on Him. He doesn't force you to be with Him, but without Him, you are now playing the other side. And yes, even a pastor is not without risk. He is still human.

[biscuitrat]

A Ouija board is simply a game - I've played it countless times at birthday parties. I told you, it's nothing more than cheap thrills. It does not get off the ground at all. It's a piece of wood, although it's usually plastic. To rise, it would have to brush off the static electricity which wood can't conduct very well. And it's completely harmless. It may be unnatural if it moves, but it's not possessed.

I don't deny there are supernatural beings out there - I just deny there being such a split between good and evil. I have different gods, and different beliefs. Hinduism doesn't have a clear evil force - there's what's moral and immoral. My religion has a huge history with the supernatural, from asuras to vampires, etc.

And also, Hinduism + possession = ? : We don't really have any scenarios of it. It's just a Christian thing, I assume.

[truefusion]

The thing about Ouija Boards, though evil spirits may not control the movement of the wooden/plastic thingy that you move (whatever it's called), that doesnt neccessarily mean that it may not attract spirits. But, the chances of it actually attracting such spirits are very very slim. Until a spirit is actually attracted by such a board, just write out something like "I w-a-n-t m-o-r-e c-a-k-e", LOL.

[biscuitrat]

It's usually just whatever's on your mind. I spelled out my dog's name three times while playing almost unconciously (she was sick that day )

[wild20]

Why take the chance? It is dumb I think, to play with your spritual life. The board itself may not be possessed, but it was originated for evil purposes. I will not risk it on something so immature. And by the way, what do you think "powers" the coard. Or will you also tell me that it is a natural evolutionary process.

[icemarle]

Hmm... Well, are you sure drums DID originate from there? If drums date back in reference during the biblical times, and people there used it, it doesn't mean that they use it to call on those spirits. After all, it all depends on what you use your instrument for. Sure, we hear all about those jinxed/cursed things that look like ordinary stuff, but in reality, have demons in them. Still, I don't think that the drums of today are used for that purpose or jinxed for that matter. If you use it for the Glory of God, does it mean you're actually calling those spirits thousands of years old? Not likely, for me, at least...

[epox]

nights!

Notice from wassie:

Calm down the lanquage this is Religion Racism

Edited by wassie, 15 September 2005 - 06:13 AM.

[wild20]

Who are you refering to Wassie? I am not using language. I am just pointing out something I learned and I get attacked for it.

[biscuitrat]

Because it can't be true - because they're merely drums. Drums have been in use for a while. Drums are inanimate objects. There are no spirits inside of them - most of my best friends are percussion players. The Ouija board was not created for evil - because there is no real evil. It's just a game, just one of those dare things. In the days of animism, talking to spirits was normal, which is where the Ouija board probably had its roots. What powers the board is your own mind. Or at least that's how the cheap plastic version works.

At any rate, our spiritual lives are not at risk, mine because I believe there is no true evil in the world, and the others because we all realize drums can't be possessed, and if they could, how scary would that be? "Oh no! I can only play cadences again and again!"

Sorry if I'm biased, but that's what marching band and years of piano does to you @_@

[FLaKes]

I think that religion has always tried to limit the human beings, thats the main reason I stopped going to church and doing religous stuff. I mean, Im not against god or anything. I do beleive in him and pray every night but Im not going to stop listening to my favorite music just because someone (human being) wrote a book because he didnt like that kind of music and started saying it is wrong to listen to that music. We have already eaten the apple, not listening to that type of music wont make us any better. The least we can do is act freely but responsively, help each other out and enjoy ourselves. And if you want to talk about spiritual stuff I suggest you get more involved and at least read something about it.

[epox]

religion is the opium of people, i'm really sorry, i think god is upon evil and good, and i'm sorry for that guy who waste paper in that book, maybe he hasn't girlfriend or friends, i'm too sorry for that guy, maybe there are monsters under his bed and he pees all nights! o poor boy!!!

[wild20]

Okay. Let me make myself more clear. The drums are NOT possessed, so please remove that idea from your head. Let me go over this again. The drums were originated in west africa, were used to call up some sort of spirits, which has to be the devil, and are not the same as used in a bible. The drum set of today has a special bat, that no drums in the bible times could play. That is what is different.

[biscuitrat]

And who's to say that said drums actually conjured spirits? How do you know it's the devil? You're assuming far too much, which is why I'm going on about my thing. Tribal music and ancestor worship are common - maybe this author fused the two together to make some sort of religious statement - hint: anything used in the Bible is good? Because that's what you're getting at. It wasn't a very technologically advanced age. Drums were made in much the same way, especially because Islamic influence throughout the Middle East and Africa brought a lot of people closer together intellectually.