119 replies to this topic

[Shadow Knight]

One of the most common, and certainly the most debatable question in circulation over dragons is, "do they exist?". Despite being repeatedly asked, a satisfactory conclusion has never really been offered. The reason is primarily because everyone has a different viewpoint on dragon existence, and due to the controversial nature of the topic, we have so far only really been faced with contradiction. To date, theories regarding dragon existence have ranged from a physical, literal presence; the idea that dragons used to roam the earth but were wiped out by chivalrous knights or human advances. Others believe that dragons are little more than a mixture of the untamed forces of nature and human imagination, or that dragons exist on the astral plane, or that they have found their home in our imaginations.
Our focus in this essay is not to try and directly prove or disprove the existence of dragons, but instead to discuss the main possibilities from which we will draw our own conclusion. However, in the end it will be up to you to decide how you believe in dragons. I for one think they were dinos that manged to survive the big bang.....whats are your threorys and thoughts?

[cots]

Well i believe that dragons may have existed but have been minipulated thus became myth. I think that there were beasts like this that roamed the land however as for fire breathing i highly doubt that.

Just to correct you on ur post "the big bang" created the earth itself, lol.

Edited by cots, 24 July 2006 - 08:59 AM.

[ink]

Maybe they did exist, but they'd probably be called just 'dinosaurs' nowadays. The pterosaurs was a flying reptile. Combine it with a non-winged alligator-head-ish dinosaur and there is your dragon. And like cots, I don't see how and why an animal would spit fire And yes, the big-bang (in theory) is referring to the overall creation of the earth , long looooong before any animal or plant and such existed. I believe you meant to refer to the asteroid/meteorite/volcano theories. If dragons ever existed, they lived *after* the big bang and before the Egyptians and the Greek lived, otherwise I'm pretty sure they would have noted their existence down somehow. Knights lived during the middle ages. During that period of time the Church and everything already ruled, and they never reported the existence of dragons.

Also, if I remember it correctly, the Chinese used to find dinosaur skeletons and they thought those belonged to dragons.

[Chatz]

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Let's first look some of the earlier stories about Dragons. The very first "written" stories (that we have uncovered so far) on the creation of the world is from the Sumerian civilization generally in the area we call Mesopotania. This area which later became Persia and then part of various Middle East civilization is generally found between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in what is now Iraq and Iran.
The actual word "dragon" comes from the Greek language much later than this time so any mundane interpretation of creatures by this name before the Greeks must be by descriptions and attributes and not by name. They were generally considered "monsters" even if they had divine attributes.
The very origins and foundations of the entire Mesopotamian culture comes from the stories, culture, and ethics of these Sumerians. The later civilizations of the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, and then Grecians all got much of their philosophy, cosmology, and religion from the earlier stories/ myths of the Sumerians so it behooves us to first look at these early very early stories and pay particular attention to them.

In fact so many of the stories sprout the same type of general story line that we can actually divide them into two categories; Gods versus monsters (dragons) before creation and heros versus monsters after creation. Later versions of the stories often change the names of the parties about but maintain the basic story line. Is it possible that all these stories came from a single source and was later simply adapted, adopted, and some elements changed to suit the civilization telling it? This is a possibility to be considered about these first stories. Many later dragon stories will also be changed in the same manner by different areas or countries but with the same original tale.

The earlier myths often have a god, usually a storm god or a god armed with thunder and lightning bolts, chasing a dragon that has something to do with water. Examples are almost all of the Mesopotamian stories, the Indian god Indra, both Chinese and Japanese myths, the Mayan Rain Gods, the Egyptian sea dragon/serpent Apophis and pursuer Re, and even many early Semitic stories.

From the very start Dragons were seen as guarding treasures, holding back the floods, and dispensing knowledge. They also are battled by gods or heros from the very beginning. In many cases stories from the Sumerians were borrowed and slightly changed by the preceding civilizations. These same stories were very similar in content but with the actual names of the participants changed.
The first written commentary, found on clay tablets, uses the names of Asag, a monster/dragon (sometimes named as Kur) and Ninurta, a god/hero. Later we are introduced to this same god/hero as Marduk by the Babylonians and the dragons name has been changed to Tiamet. There is some confusion here as the preserved evidence is not in good shape or complete.

In the Babylonian version called the "Enuma elish" Tiamet is one of the original pair of god and goddess at the founding of the universe. From these two all later creatures, good or bad, came into creation. This Goddess is in effect the "mother of all."

In the beginning of the tale Tiamet defends her offspring and all of creation from all the minions and forces of evil. But later, when her husband Apsu is killed, she apparently goes mad and decides to end all creation in her grief. This irrational action pits her against all the other Gods and one of her offspring, named Marduk, is talked into opposing her.

In the fight that ensues Marduk finally kills her by shooting an arrow into her mouth as she tries to swallow him. She is a shape shifter as most or all early Dragons are assumed to be so fought him in different guises. Even time seems to be effect which will come up again in the dragons versions. After the battle he uses her dragon body to form the earth and from death we have life and substance.
The first epic of the hero or human and dragon encounter is the "Epic of Gilgamesh." This we know of by clay tablets from Semitic origin. But these tablets are telling about much earlier versions of the story. Here the hero is pitted against a Dragon named Humbaba who also has shape shifting abilities. Gilgamesh with the aid of the god Shamash finally kills the Dragon but gets in trouble with those other gods who were friends with or supported the Dragon and so has a pyrrhic victory and some penalties for his action are imposed.

Not much later we find the Egyptians with a similar story of either Re the sun god or Seth the hero destroying the snake or Dragon named Apophis. Again there is much confusion and contradictions. In this story both the side of good and the side of evil have attributes of the dragon. So once again we see the idea that the winner of the contest with the dragon take on the attributes of the dragon.
The Hittites have a story of the battle of a storm god with the Dragon named Illuyankas which also has contradictions and different versions but also follows the earlier stories in general details.
Later on we get several versions from the Grecian civilization. There is the story of Zeus fighting Typhon. Typhon is described as "Up from his shoulders there grew a hundred snake heads, those of a dreaded dragon." We will deal with the relationship between snakes and dragons a little latter. But suffice for now to say they are essentially the same. And again this monster/dragon is slain by a mighty thunderbolt from Zeus.

Very similar to this is the story of Apollo and Python. Python is alternately described in different versions of the story as a giant snake or a female dragon with many coils. In any case in some versions she is killed by Apollo when the young god shoots an arrow down her throat. But in other version she is taken into his service and becomes a protected oracular serpent at Delphi. It is interesting to note that both Grecian and Romans had serpents or dragons that were kept at various temples including Delphi that were considered to have great knowledge.

It is also interesting that Hercules himself consulted the Oracle of Delphi and was directed on his "12 labors" by the advice he got their. Included in his labors were the destroying of the dragons Ladon and Hydra of the Seven heads.

A good example of another Greek hero is Perseus who instead of fighting for good versus evil killed a dragon that was about to devour the princess Andromeda in order to marry her and gain a kingdom. The dragon was sent by the god Poseidon or Neptune to avenge an insult.

Another hero dragonslayer was Jason who along with his companions the Argonauts had to overcome the unsleeping "dragon of a thousand coils" who guarded the golden fleece. In one version the dragon is ensorcelled into sleeping and they stole away unharmed with the treasure. In another Jason fought the dragon who was a sea dragon and lost the fight and so was swallowed. it was only by intersession of the god Athene that the dragon gave up her prey.

An interesting story related to Jason is that of Cadmus who later went on to be the King of Thebes. He was also given advice by the Oracle of Delphi (who was herself a dragon) that eventually led him to fight and kill a golden crested dragon at the spring of Ares. For killing this dragon Cadmus was forced to serve the god Ares for a year but was then allowed to found his city from the children of the dragons teeth.

Notice from serverph:

COPIED CONTENT. taking for granted Chatz "went through the trouble of tayping it ALL out for you", it still is COPIED CONTENT, which needs to be within quote tags. and thanks to rvalkass, an online version is found at http://www.biopark.o...gonhistory.html
quotes added, warning served. REVIEW TRAP17 FORUM RULES & TOS. Hosted members should know better that when their hosting credits gets reduced because of this violation, their loss would be MORE than what they have earned from the post in the first place.

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This info was taken from a book on dragons I have,I went through the trouble of tayping it ALL out for you.

Edited by serverph, 24 July 2006 - 05:09 PM.

[garbage]

I think its possible, that they exsisted, might have been some kind of evolution of dinosaurs

[rvalkass]

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First post copied from: http://sommerland.or...e/theoreal.html.

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This info was taken from a book on dragons I have,I went through the trouble of tayping it ALL out for you.

Well Chatz, the exact same information is available here: http://www.biopark.o...gonhistory.html, which is a website, not a book, and can easily be copied...

Personally I agree with Cots. Dragons probably did exist, but not in the way we imagine; as massive fire-breathing winged monsters. Dragons were most likely lizards or other creatures that simply got embelished by travellers and story-tellers. The stories have been passed on, steadily getting more and more extravagant and evolving to the images we have today.

[Shadow Knight]

The only thing i dont like about the dragon theory is that there is no valid proof, pictures, bones, or any sign that they were once here. It makes me think and think....i am a very beig fan on dragons but even i half to question myself about them really existing. Hmm...looks like im not the first to think about this..

Oh and when i said the big bang i meant when the so called metor crashed and hit the earth thus killing all dinos......

[Cerebral Stasis]

Dragons do, in fact, exist.

Edited by Cerebral Stasis, 24 July 2006 - 05:44 PM.

[Plenoptic]

lol Ya like Cebral Stasis said there are dragons out there. And if you think about it they might have ancestors as well that could probably be considered dragons. Of course I the Komodo might not be the dragon you guys are thinking of but you know there might have been dragons in the dinosaur age or relatives to them. I don't know if they are around today with the big wings and what not breathing fire like you guys might think but dragons themselves dragons do exist and the Komodo is an example.

[Panzer]

Could the Komodo dragons be in a sort of evolution line?

Dragon with wings and also breathe fire>>>
Dragons with NO wings that breathes fire >>>
Dragon with NO wings and doesnt breathe fire (Komodo)

It could be an evolution line. Or travellers could have seen a Komodo dragon in a desert (whever theyre found) and possible saw a mirage which appeared it breathing fire.

[truefusion]

If a dragon really did breathe fire, how would it go about in doing so? The insides would have to be fire-resistent. There would also have to be about three paths: one from the mouth leading to the stomach, one leading from the mouth to the place where the fire is produced, and the other to the lungs. That way if it were to get thirsty (probably because of all the fire-breathing ) it won't affect the area that produces fire. Now, the other thing to wonder about is how is the fire produced? Is it that the creature has a body temperature that is so great, that it gets converted into fire, and then released to cool down the beast? Does the body produce a flammable oil, that when the dragon wills, a spark happens which causes flame? And how is it that the dragon doens't explode from such a thing?

I don't believe dragons could breathe fire.

Edited by truefusion, 25 July 2006 - 03:08 AM.

[Shadow Knight]

If you read my beginning post it would explain that the oils from plants and such could cause such a conduction....but as you say you dont beleave they could breathe fire i do indeed agree with you.

You clealy said the ways it couldnt, which in this case was veyr descriptive. Have you ever thought of the way dragons could of breathed fire though? You can be nagative on the possiblity that they could and be possitive that they couldnt. Eather your mind is made up and nothing willl change this thought nor will mine...but i still think about the possibilty that they may have been able to breathe fire. There is still one problem about this though....no one has solid proof that they could.

[masterleous]

I watched latest program on Draon research on Discovery last months, and found that it was an ideal thing not a real, it is imaginary thinking, the creator of this Dragon (Who give us the first concept of Dragon) is actually combined several properties of several species to this Dragon.

But Human are researching on them

[Cerebral Stasis]

If I'm not mistaken, there is a chemical that, when exposed to air, ignites. This could be a possible way that said dragon would breathe fire (in theory).

Of course in reality, I wouldn't count on it. If a creature spouted fire, there would always be the chance of a hiccup in which it would breathe fire literally and sear it's lungs, killing it. Not exactly an evolutionary leap forward (probably why they're extinct, if they ever existed).

Then, if these dragons were, as fairytales tell us, about the size of a large dinosaur, one would wonder how they would possibly get enough food without wiping out every other species around them, not to mention flying. For a creature the size of an Apatosaurus to fly would, in my mind, require wings so gigantic that they could not possibly be supported by such a small body in comparison (meaning that each wing would have to be perhaps half a dozen or more times the creature's size in order to actually come close to having a large enough span to create lift), and then such a gigantic wingspan would require an enormously powerful muscle group to move it, which would burn energy so fast that the creature would probably fly just so it could eat, and if it ever stopped eating, it would starve (meaning that, if it flew a lot, it maybe couldn't survive two days without food).

As you can see in this Wikipedia article, many cultures have imagined a species of dragons, but there is absolutely no proof to go with any of them. I would think that there would be at least one dragon fossil or some evidence thereof, but seeing there is none, I'm willing to bet that dragons never did actually exist.

[garbage]

Cerebral Stasis, on Jul 24 2006, 12:43 PM, said:

Dragons do, in fact, exist.

there you go he got you a pic of a dragon..

[truefusion]

Shadow Knight, on Jul 25 2006, 02:53 AM, said:

If you read my beginning post it would explain that the oils from plants and such could cause such a conduction...

I'm sorry, but i did not see anything about oils from plants and such in your beginning post.

[MaverickFang]

Something of the "Dragon" sort had to exist at some point of time. If you look at ancient texts from all over the world, you see something about dragons being mentioned. Whether its the elegant dragons from asia, or the tribal dragons from europe, their preatty well wide spread.


Now for the fact if a dragon ever existed, there is no proof, nor disproof. People of "ye olde" ages were preatty spiritial and probably destroyed the bones with any remains to rid the dragons spirit. So if there was the possibility for something, its probably gone.

[Gondero Werkus]

To me a dragon seems like they would be a kind of dinosaur. Because they had tough hide usually scales you know, and that's what dinosaurs had for skin. And I've definitly heard a lot in my time that Dinosaurs never flew although I don't know why when they've found a couple species of dinosaur that did in fact fly like birds. So to me it is completly possible for a Dragon to have existed in the time of the dinosaurs. As for the fire breathing that is something that doesn't seem to have been present because nothing else we've ever found on earth has anything like that.

But since they were able to fly there is a good chance they were able to run when the Dinosaurs started becoming extinct. Since the popular reason as to why that happened was climate change, (See they global warming then too lol). So the dragon's would be able to move to a semi suitable climate since the change would have been global. That move would have allowed them to stay alive a lot longer than some of the other dinosaurs which if a few lasted just long enough people might have been able to catch a glimpse of them a long time ago you know.

[pixieloo]

Of course they did ;]

but I'm quite sure that the Bible mentions dragons.

even if it doesn't, i do think they exist. anything's possible.

[Cerebral Stasis]

The Bible does mention dragons, but then again it mentions giants and boats that hold two of every species of animal that ever existed as well.

And dragons didn't necessarily exist because a lot of cultures wrote about it, it may just be a commonly-imagined mythical creature (like dwarves and elves).

[True2Earn]

Dragons still exist. We call them "dinosaurs" today (which is a new term coined in the late 19th century). There are many documented "stories" of dragons being slain in the past 500 years. Today, in central Africa, namely the Congo, many sightings of "dragons" occured and there have even been excursions into the deep, dark juingle to try and get a glimpse of it. There are even "dragons" mentioned in the Bible. I can go on about this topic but I will keep this post short...

[ink]

Lots of those ancient stories and the elegant dragons from Asia are not actual eye-witness reports, they are made up stories, theories...like Cerebral Stasis says. And like I mentioned before, the Chinese found dinosaur bones in the earth, and they based their dragon theories on those findings. They also thought that dragons lived beneath the surface of the earth. About the sightings of dragons in Congo: it all reminds me very much of sightings of the monster of Loch Ness, and Bigfoot in America. But if they do exist, and are really that big as they are in fairytales, then maybe we can check Congo with Google Earth?

[Cerebral Stasis]

Chances are that the Congo would be mostly rainforest which, I'm sorry to say, is a bit difficult for orbiting satellites to penetrate.

[cangor]

I'm not quite sure on the facts of what I'm about to write, but I remember reading this somewhere, I think it was actually proven, but I may have forgotton parts of it over time and, anyways... Here's my explanation of "dragons"
Like many others, I agree that we call them 'dinosaurs' today.... and I agree that there are probably some still living... anyway, many dinosaurs eat meat, and apparently the meat ferments in their stomach because it is not all digested at once... (this is the part I am a little sketchy on the details on)... basically, dinosaurs would "burp," giving off excess flammible gases from the fermentation of the meat in their stomachs.... (gross, I guess) Anyway, some dinosaurs such as t-rexes are able to create sparks when their teeth grind together... apparently this ignites the gases, causing them to look like they're breathing fire...

Anyways, there it is. Not my theory, so somebody may want to check and see if they can find it somewhere...

As for me, I prefer the dragons of legend... much more fantastical, if you ask me...

But that makes me think of something else...

If anybody has read the book "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" by Mark Twain you will have an idea of what I am talking about.... Shortly after the main character is captured by a knight, he is taken back to a castle and the knight boasts about how he took this strange man from a land of magicians who are all invincible and, well, I guess knights liked to boast about their feats back then, and perhaps wander from the truth a little bit. Suppose there really was some sort of dinosaur or any old animal that a bunch of knights had killed... Surely they would have made the beast sound far more ferocious than it really was, giving it the ability to breathe fire and the such....

a bit more believable of a theory, anyway

[Moolkye]

It's amazing that such a creature of myth could have everlasting life, even if only in our stories, dreams, movies, etc.

Dragons: Do they exist?
Well the bible describes giants of the land and sea, ad well as giant men and such.

Could these be dragons, cyclops, giants in general? I think they are descriptions of creatures and beings as best described by that time frame.

In Mideval times, people could have described creatures as dragons. Like huge lizards, and, as the stories were passed down had features added to them to make the stories more exciting.

In the bible, in revelations, there are things that are described by that person in the time he lived. Fro instance giant dragon flies with scorpian like stingers, and the face of men, etc. Good description of an apache helicopter if you ask me.

There are things that we have yet to discover, and we will try to describe them to the best of our ability. Of course, I am sure it will not be anything like what it really is, when actually photographed and discovered.