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What Will Really Happen When We Run Out Of Oil


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#1 glenstein

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 01:42 AM

I'm no expert on energy issues. What basic knowledge I have stems from my doing tons upon tons of research just to ensure that I beat someone else in a school debate on the subject. But that planted enough of a foundation for me to stay interested and read further and to sound reasonably informed about this issue. So I will be throwing my hat into the ring that has been started here about "what will happen", and hopefully I have one of the more interesting takes on it.

First, the major pressure from this issue is going to be within our lifetime and depending on different predictions, perhaps even within the decade. The problems with oil shortages are real and really frightening, and for some of the doomsday scenarios, you should google the term "peak oil".

Peak Oil is not when oil runs out. It's when oil production begins to slow down. Every economy in the world is based on growth. More population, more companies, more cars, more oil. We are still pumping out more oil and pumping it out faster to accommodate all these expansions. But, we will hit a peak in oil production, called "peak oil". Some say this will happen around 2030, some say 2008, some say it is already here, but most seem to agree it is at least a few decades off.

But the problems don't start when we run out of oil. They start when we reach Peak Oil. As the economy continues to expand, more power is needed and more cars hit the road. But suddenly, there is less oil available to meet rising demands. You know the rules of supply and demand, so it should be easy to see that after peak oil, the price of gas, oil, gas-based electricity, etc. will skyrocket.

Because oil touches virtually every facet of our economy, all sectors and all goods will have much higher prices and everything is going to get much harder economically. Most every product has a transportation cost factored into its price and all those prices will go way up, our economy will slow and things will get awful.

Unless, that is, our American politicians invoke some drastic changes to the way our economy (our cars and our power plants) generate power-- revolutionary and within the next 6 ... days. Honestly it would have to happen immediately or else it's already very late. But I doubt we are actually going to invoke any major changes until we've actually directly felt the effects.

But when that happens, we will be compelled to invoke changes and they will. With cars, there wont be one simple answer. There will actually be a combination of different types of fuel that cars will be running on that will all take up their own percentage of the cars on the road. Some will be biodiesel. But we could never power all cars on biodiesel because there simply isn't enough farmland. That which exists is needed for food and depending on the crop we use to get the oil (probably various but most likely soy), we probably wouldn't have enough acerage in the entire united states of america to power our cars. I say "probably" because I tried to do this calculation myself, and there is a very good chance I was off. But still, even if we converted half to 80% of all of our country over to farming for biodiesel, there just wouldn't be enough.

What's more, this would create problems around the world because if third world countries see a stronger market for their crops as fuel than as food they may be compelled to sell it instead of offer it to their own populace. Maybe. But those would probably be rare and isolated scenarios.

So biodiesel will be developed but it will only produce a small fraction of our cars.

Also, we are obviously going to still have to use oil in our next generation of cars, but mpg standards on regular cars will be way more strict and they will have to pollute much much less than they presently do. There will need to be laws requiring that only a certain amount can be sold that have low mileages and that as years go on less and less will be allowed. These, though much more expensive because of insane fuel costs, will still be one of the major cornerstones of the car fleet, even as it gets factored out of existence.

There will also be hydrogen powered (fuel cell) cars. But there will be even less of these then biodiesel because they would be extremely inconvenient. Hydrogen atoms are small (small as they get!) and can leak straight through perfectly airtight containers.

People fantasize about a hydrogen economy but realizing one would take a major major, major overhaul to our existing infrastructure. We can't put hydrogen in the old underground oil and gas pipelines stretching across our country without replacing tons of existing oil equipment. Presumably things like pressure gages, computer systems, and other materials used for oil would have to be replaced.

Also, per unit volume, hydrogen packs less power than oil or gas. A hydrogen fuel tank on a car would be many many times larger than a gas tank for the same distance, unless you were keeping the hydrogen stored at several thousand psi or as liquid hydrogen, then (if I remember correctly) it's closer to 2x the size for a tank, but that is unrealistically expensive and insane. Paying to keep hydrogen at such high pressure or at such low temperatures is just that much more expensive. Per unit weight hydrogen is great. The same weight of gasoline holds much less punch than the same weight hydrogen. But our economy functions by volume. By gallons of gas, by barrels of oil. Practically, the size of our fuel tanks, transportation and management of a fuel all primarily revolve around the volume of it and not the weight of it.

Adding to that, if we are to use giant fuel trucks to deliver hydrogen around the country like we do gas, we would need 20 times the amount of fuel trucks on the road to maintain everything.

All hydrogen would have to be created (where would you harvest it? It's the most simple element there is so it always mixes with something else). Around the world today, most hydrogen is produced by breaking down a fossil fuel, a hydrocarbon with hydrogen inside it like coal, oil, etc. 96% percent of hydrogen is produced by fossil fuels in the present day, and so having hydrogen cars wouldn't help us get off of oil. At least, that is the talking point everyone like to use, but if we transitioned over to hydrogen obviously that would change. The most famous example is electrolysis, where you basically fry water with electricity and it breaks the water back into hydrogen and oxygen. Obviously, there would be new plants that would do this and separate out the hydrogen and then send it around our country. Unless it gets produced right at the station where people would fill up with hydrogen. Then the car would just do the opposite combine the hydrogen back with oxygen to make water + electricity, which allows the car to run.

But for a while at least, these will be weak cars (can only go so far), and it will be inconvenient to get the fuel. And it would take a massive amount of electricity just to produce all this hydrogen (something on the level of doubling the amount of power plants in the country just for the hydrogen cars alone, if they were to power the car fleet). Where will this electricity come from? But still, the hydrogen fuel cell car will have to be a reality, but it will be a small portion of our cars.

Probably the single largest contingent of cars are going to be hybrid cars, which will run mostly on electricity or biodiesel or hydrogen (still electric), but there will be gas when it is needed. If our consumers would stop being idiots and demand 300 horsepower cars, a lot less gas would be necessary and hybrid cars would have an easier time becoming widespread. They are already here today, they have the muscle when needed but will rely mostly on electricity and drastically reduce the need for oil. Even though they use gas they will be a major, major contingent of the nation's car fleet and will greatly help reduce demand and ease the pain of high costs of oil.

Then there is the straight up pure electric car. Not a fuel cell car, but just a battery powered car. On many levels these will suck. They have weak engines and can only like 93 miles on one "load" of electricity. Not much but it's actually more than millions of people need to drive in a day. They will take hours to recharge so if you forgot to plug it in (yes, plug it in) overnight, you are out of luck the next morning. Batteries would have to be entirely replaced about every 20,000 miles and we would have to find creative ways to drive less. But they will not use fossil fuels and once the cars penetrate the market (which they will) they will become about the same price as any other car, but with a much, much, oh-so-much cheaper bill when it comes to fueling up. They will actually be a huge help though, much more than biodiesel.

But the electricity has to come from somewhere, whether we just use it for electrolysis for fuel cells or for straight battery powered electric cars. Nuclear power will have to be phased out entirely. If you factored government subsidies, waste management, plant maintenance back into the cost of nuclear power it would actually be very high. Nuclear power is not our future, no inexpensive solution for removing waste exists (but the fears that the plant will blow up are an exaggeration, they are very safe despite what people will tell you). Also for political reasons, if we are smart, we aren't going to use nuclear power. Nuclear power plants and nuclear weapons are brother and sister, and from one technology, the other technology can and will be accessed.

Also, for the towering destruction of pollution caused by Coal Plants (also a fossil fuel which we will run out of in 200 years, a long time but shorter than we think), Coal will be out. So no coal, no oil and no nuclear for our power plants. What, then? Natural renewable sources. The strongest of these will likely be wind which is abundant and already penetrating the electricity market present day and expanding at a ridiculous pace (the industry grows by an insane 33% a year). Wind is going to catch up on its own accord, even without the urgent intervention that will be needed, so it should develop more quickly than solar power. But there will be plenty of each on a massive scale.

Also, geothermal energy (drilling down in the earth for undergrount heat), on the western half of our country around California and Nevada and several over places, is already used as a viable power source, and there is tons of it. Hawaii, which already gets 25% of all its power from geothermal thanks to the volcanic activity could expand further. Geothermal, wind, and solar will all produce the new electricity which will be the backbone of the car industry.

So, what saves us from the oil shortage? A combination of a few things happening at once. But the short answer would be: electricity.

Thats my view, and if you look at sources to check me on my assertions, you should see that most every claim above is backed up by a source which you can find on the internet.

Edited by glenstein, 27 January 2007 - 01:48 AM.


#2 PurPleKuSh

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 02:22 AM

Have you forgotten ethanol? Corn makes excellent gas, as a matter of fact brazil has converted most of their cars and stations into ethanol. Its pretty enviroment friendly and its about just as effeisiant as oil. You can still reach high speeds and runs cars perfectly. Just fermant the corn oil into ethanol and it will run a car perfectly...and from what i understand its fairly cheap just a little time consuming..i think it would be the best way to go

#3 glenstein

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 03:16 AM

View PostPurPleKuSh, on Jan 26 2007, 09:22 PM, said:

Have you forgotten ethanol? Corn makes excellent gas, as a matter of fact brazil has converted most of their cars and stations into ethanol. Its pretty enviroment friendly and its about just as effeisiant as oil. You can still reach high speeds and runs cars perfectly. Just fermant the corn oil into ethanol and it will run a car perfectly...and from what i understand its fairly cheap just a little time consuming..i think it would be the best way to go

First I should note that ethanol only produces slightly less CO2 than natural gas, and involves hazardous chemicals which get into the surrounding environment besides. So there is an argument to be made that ethanol's environmental impact is equal to or worse than that of natural gas.

Ethanol is only even talked about because it, uniquely enough, has a lobbying industry and a bit of a too-intimate relationship with all those dirty things we associate with the political underworld. The largest ethanol producer (whose name escapes me EDIT:Name is ADM) gets more than 33% of its income from government grants/purchases/other money.

Also, ethanol is very natural gas intensive to make. Natural gas is used to heat the mashed corn used to make ethanol and to dry the distillers grains co product. Rising gas costs have been shown to have a huge impact on ethanol profitability. And, perhaps most importantly of all, some studies are claiming that ethanol, on the whole, even if profitable does not yield a net gain in energy. That is, supposing ethanol fuel were used to power every part of the ethanol production, you would actually lose more ethanol than you would produce! There are serious questions around it and the talk in newspapers and politics seems to have more to do with an ethanol/corn lobbying presence than it's legitimacy.

Lastly, an ethanol supply has the same issues biodiesel has- we would not have nearly enough farmland to use it viably. If every acre of corn in this country were used solely for ethanol, at best we could produce 12% of our nations fuel. I'll actually leave a link for this: http://www.physorg.c...ws71833070.html

There were other reasons relating to efficiency (apparently people notice MPG drops on their cars when they use ethanol) but there was a web of reasons for why I left ethanol out. I had some notes on ethanol.. if I can find them I'll post a bit more.

Edit: Here is an actual source on the ethanol lobbying industry:
http://www.taxpayer....rgy/ethanol.htm

Edit: Another article that more fully explains the lobbying and government relations of Archer Daniels Midland, the largest ethanol company:
http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/patzek/Harmf...es_04_10_06.htm

The whole industry is corrupt and politicized, so I didn't touch it in my original post.

Edited by glenstein, 27 January 2007 - 03:46 AM.


#4 dundun2007

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 03:37 AM

Yeah this is a really good subject and i wish people would pay more attention to the growing fact that there is not an unlimited supply of oil in the world and the fight for it is getting worse and worse. I have heard rumors that people have made cars that get over 150 mpg, and when they show their ideas to the car companies they get their patent bought out by the oil companies and their ideas hidden so the oil industry can keep making money. This is all just rumors but i can come to think that its actually quite believable, our country will do anything to become powerful and wealthy even if it hurts the people and the environment doing so.

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 04:07 AM

Well first off there are so many other things that you can use to fuel cars. Ethanol which is from corn. And if you are from Indiana you should know that we have plenty of that. But if there were no other sources to fuel cars, i guess panic and world mayhem would break loose. Cause everybody would have to get off their lazy @$$'s and walk or ride a bike. lol. I basically walk everywhere i go, if im going to a friends house i walk. But if im going to a store that is far away or to visit relatives far away then of course i use a car. but i prefer to walk cause its good for you and keeps you in shape.

Edited by savagemonkeyz14, 28 January 2007 - 12:48 AM.


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Posted 27 January 2007 - 05:25 AM

i saw we start using horses again like the old times and cahriots! and plus, it will not do any damage to earth, it wont mess up our planet and we'll get some good weather for once. but im sure some scientists are probbably going to come up with some kind of new oil.

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 06:21 AM

View Postglenstein, on Jan 26 2007, 05:42 PM, said:

I'm no expert on energy issues. What basic knowledge I have stems from my doing tons upon tons of research just to ensure that I beat someone else in a school debate on the subject. But that planted enough of a foundation for me to stay interested and read further and to sound reasonably informed about this issue. So I will be throwing my hat into the ring that has been started here about "what will happen", and hopefully I have one of the more interesting takes on it.

First, the major pressure from this issue is going to be within our lifetime and depending on different predictions, perhaps even within the decade. The problems with oil shortages are real and really frightening, and for some of the doomsday scenarios, you should google the term "peak oil".

Some rather interesting reading comes when you add the word "myth" to the above search.


Quote

Peak Oil is not when oil runs out. It's when oil production begins to slow down. Every economy in the world is based on growth. More population, more companies, more cars, more oil. We are still pumping out more oil and pumping it out faster to accommodate all these expansions. But, we will hit a peak in oil production, called "peak oil". Some say this will happen around 2030, some say 2008, some say it is already here, but most seem to agree it is at least a few decades off.

But the problems don't start when we run out of oil. They start when we reach Peak Oil. As the economy continues to expand, more power is needed and more cars hit the road. But suddenly, there is less oil available to meet rising demands. You know the rules of supply and demand, so it should be easy to see that after peak oil, the price of gas, oil, gas-based electricity, etc. will skyrocket.

The rule of supply and demand doesn't appear to be valid here as our country's petroleum reserves are at historic highs, last year there were no serious hurricanes, our demand is low, yet gas is still very very high, especially in the northwest US. If supply/demand isn't setting prices, what is? The fact no new refineries have been built in over a decade doesn't help but dig a little deeper...

Quote

Because oil touches virtually every facet of our economy, all sectors and all goods will have much higher prices and everything is going to get much harder economically. Most every product has a transportation cost factored into its price and all those prices will go way up, our economy will slow and things will get awful.

Unless, that is, our American politicians invoke some drastic changes to the way our economy (our cars and our power plants) generate power-- revolutionary and within the next 6 ... days. Honestly it would have to happen immediately or else it's already very late. But I doubt we are actually going to invoke any major changes until we've actually directly felt the effects.
Don't hold your breath. Politicians aren't known for doing what's best for the people, they're hired to work for the global corporations.

Quote

But when that happens, we will be compelled to invoke changes and they will. With cars, there wont be one simple answer. There will actually be a combination of different types of fuel that cars will be running on that will all take up their own percentage of the cars on the road. Some will be biodiesel. But we could never power all cars on biodiesel because there simply isn't enough farmland. That which exists is needed for food and depending on the crop we use to get the oil (probably various but most likely soy), we probably wouldn't have enough acerage in the entire united states of america to power our cars. I say "probably" because I tried to do this calculation myself, and there is a very good chance I was off. But still, even if we converted half to 80% of all of our country over to farming for biodiesel, there just wouldn't be enough.
Complicated issue, but when or if the farming of hemp is legalized again, it'll help solve the bio-diesel problem. The hemp seed is, I believe, over 95% oil, the plant needs little or no fertilizer and grows pretty much anywhere with irrigation, and it can be used for clothing, paper, and a myriad of other things on top of oil from its seeds.

Quote

What's more, this would create problems around the world because if third world countries see a stronger market for their crops as fuel than as food they may be compelled to sell it instead of offer it to their own populace. Maybe. But those would probably be rare and isolated scenarios.
Don't bank on it. Have you seen the price of corn lately? Hope you don't like corn, because you won't be able to afford it pretty soon.

Quote

So biodiesel will be developed but it will only produce a small fraction of our cars.
Bio-diesel is many many years away from being a viable fuel (100%) replacement due to it's high pour point. The fuel gels(freezes), depending upon the type of oil used, at very high temps (up to about 43 degrees F if memory serves) and for those of us who don't live in the tropics, that'd shut us down in the winter. That's why, in the northern latitudes in the winter, a 5-10% mix is as high as we can go. In the summer we can run B100 (100% biodiesel) but we're back to the old problem of burning nasty dirty mineral diesel in the cooler months. If the EPA would let up a little, diesel cars are where the future should lie. Many of them will go twice or more as far as a similar gasoline car on one gallon of fuel!

Quote

Also, we are obviously going to still have to use oil in our next generation of cars, but mpg standards on regular cars will be way more strict and they will have to pollute much much less than they presently do. There will need to be laws requiring that only a certain amount can be sold that have low mileages and that as years go on less and less will be allowed. These, though much more expensive because of insane fuel costs, will still be one of the major cornerstones of the car fleet, even as it gets factored out of existence.
There isn't much less they can pollute at this point. In some cities the air coming out of the tailpipe of a new car is actually cleaner and better to breathe than the air the car sucks in to its air filter!

Quote

There will also be hydrogen powered (fuel cell) cars. But there will be even less of these then biodiesel because they would be extremely inconvenient. Hydrogen atoms are small (small as they get!) and can leak straight through perfectly airtight containers.
Have you seen Honda's home fuel cell charging station? http://www.world.hon...eEnergyStation/ Pretty cool, huh? Put up a medium sized solar array on your roof and drive this little cutie to work and back every day. While you're at it, say goodbye to those annoying power outages. Honda's fuel cell powers not only your car, but your whole house as well! God I love that company.

Quote

People fantasize about a hydrogen economy but realizing one would take a major major, major overhaul to our existing infrastructure. We can't put hydrogen in the old underground oil and gas pipelines stretching across our country without replacing tons of existing oil equipment. Presumably things like pressure gages, computer systems, and other materials used for oil would have to be replaced.

Also, per unit volume, hydrogen packs less power than oil or gas. A hydrogen fuel tank on a car would be many many times larger than a gas tank for the same distance, unless you were keeping the hydrogen stored at several thousand psi or as liquid hydrogen, then (if I remember correctly) it's closer to 2x the size for a tank, but that is unrealistically expensive and insane. Paying to keep hydrogen at such high pressure or at such low temperatures is just that much more expensive. Per unit weight hydrogen is great. The same weight of gasoline holds much less punch than the same weight hydrogen. But our economy functions by volume. By gallons of gas, by barrels of oil. Practically, the size of our fuel tanks, transportation and management of a fuel all primarily revolve around the volume of it and not the weight of it.

Adding to that, if we are to use giant fuel trucks to deliver hydrogen around the country like we do gas, we would need 20 times the amount of fuel trucks on the road to maintain everything.

All hydrogen would have to be created (where would you harvest it? It's the most simple element there is so it always mixes with something else). Around the world today, most hydrogen is produced by breaking down a fossil fuel, a hydrocarbon with hydrogen inside it like coal, oil, etc. 96% percent of hydrogen is produced by fossil fuels in the present day, and so having hydrogen cars wouldn't help us get off of oil. At least, that is the talking point everyone like to use, but if we transitioned over to hydrogen obviously that would change. The most famous example is electrolysis, where you basically fry water with electricity and it breaks the water back into hydrogen and oxygen. Obviously, there would be new plants that would do this and separate out the hydrogen and then send it around our country. Unless it gets produced right at the station where people would fill up with hydrogen. Then the car would just do the opposite combine the hydrogen back with oxygen to make water + electricity, which allows the car to run.

But for a while at least, these will be weak cars (can only go so far), and it will be inconvenient to get the fuel. And it would take a massive amount of electricity just to produce all this hydrogen (something on the level of doubling the amount of power plants in the country just for the hydrogen cars alone, if they were to power the car fleet). Where will this electricity come from? But still, the hydrogen fuel cell car will have to be a reality, but it will be a small portion of our cars.

Probably the single largest contingent of cars are going to be hybrid cars, which will run mostly on electricity or biodiesel or hydrogen (still electric), but there will be gas when it is needed. If our consumers would stop being idiots and demand 300 horsepower cars, a lot less gas would be necessary and hybrid cars would have an easier time becoming widespread. They are already here today, they have the muscle when needed but will rely mostly on electricity and drastically reduce the need for oil. Even though they use gas they will be a major, major contingent of the nation's car fleet and will greatly help reduce demand and ease the pain of high costs of oil.
It's human nature to enjoy the thrill of raw power. I doubt you'll see any change in that aspect of humanity any time soon.

Then there is the straight up pure electric car. Not a fuel cell car, but just a battery powered car. On many levels these will suck. They have weak engines and can only like 93 miles on one "load" of electricity. Not much but it's actually more than millions of people need to drive in a day. They will take [b]hours[/b] to recharge so if you forgot to plug it in (yes, plug it in) overnight, you are out of luck the next morning. Batteries would have to be entirely [b]replaced[/b] about every 20,000 miles and we would have to find creative ways to drive less. But they will not use fossil fuels and once the cars penetrate the market (which they will) they will become about the same price as any other car, but with a much, much, oh-so-much cheaper bill when it comes to fueling up. They will actually be a huge help though, much more than biodiesel.
You seem to fail to realize that "fuel cells" are, in fact, just fancy batteries with no limit on their usable lifespan. You can recharge most batteries a hundred to a thousand times. You can recharge a fuel-cell (H2) an unlimited number of times. That's a simplistic explaination, for more detail do a search. I did: http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/env...nfuelcells.html There are more and none of them I've read is 100% accurate, but you'll get a good idea if you read at least that one. Also, electric cars consume massive amounts of fossile fuels. Unless you produce electricity from the air, sun, or water/gravity.

But the electricity has to come from somewhere, whether we just use it for electrolysis for fuel cells or for straight battery powered electric cars. Nuclear power will have to be phased out entirely. If you factored government subsidies, waste management, plant maintenance back into the cost of nuclear power it would actually be very high. Nuclear power is not our future, no inexpensive solution for removing waste exists (but the fears that the plant will blow up are an exaggeration, they are very safe despite what people will tell you). Also for political reasons, if we are smart, we aren't going to use nuclear power. Nuclear power plants and nuclear weapons are brother and sister, and from one technology, the other technology can and will be accessed.
I'm not ready just yet to give up on nuclear energy. Don't dismiss it so easily. Technology in this field is advancing rapidly and I believe in the near future there'll be discovered a way to easily erase all the spent plutonium or uranium rods thus removing one of the three main things that make electricity produced in this way unattractive: Expense of the power plant, disposal of the radioactive waste, and potential for an accident or terrorist attack ala Chernobyl. Also, research continues on fusion which involves no waste and it won't always be just another good idea with no solution. Addendum: Actually the latest method of disposal for depleted uranium is to incorporate it into projectiles and litter the middle east and Africa with it causing massive radiation poisoning of our troops and the planet.

Also, for the towering destruction of pollution caused by Coal Plants (also a fossil fuel which we will run out of in 200 years, a long time but shorter than we think), Coal will be out. So no coal, no oil and no nuclear for our power plants. What, then? Natural renewable sources. The strongest of these will likely be wind which is abundant and already penetrating the electricity market present day and expanding at a ridiculous pace (the industry grows by an insane 33% a year). Wind is going to catch up on its own accord, even without the urgent intervention that will be needed, so it should develop more quickly than solar power. But there will be plenty of each on a massive scale.

Also, geothermal energy (drilling down in the earth for undergrount heat), on the western half of our country around California and Nevada and several over places, is already used as a viable power source, and there is tons of it. Hawaii, which already gets 25% of all its power from geothermal thanks to the volcanic activity could expand further. Geothermal, wind, and solar will all produce the new electricity which will be the backbone of the car industry.
Geothermal energy is really big in northern NV, but it'll probably never be a major source of power. I look forward to the day it's commonly incorporated in the building of rural homes to help save energy.

So, what saves us from the oil shortage? A combination of a few things happening at once. But the short answer would be: electricity. 

Thats my view, and if you look at sources to check me on my assertions, you should see that most every claim above is backed up by a source which you can find on the internet.
An overall well thought-out and nicely researched topic so I'm not going to tear it apart, mostly because I'm feeling lazy, but not because your arguments are bullet-proof. I just want to take exception to a few things and anything else, you've made a choice which side of the debate to stand based on widely available knowledge, but is it the truth? No, I'm not asking you if you're lying, I just noticed that some of your "facts" have "counter-facts" available out there as well. First off, oil is one of the most politicized issues out there, so be careful not to buy the propaganda about "peak oil". Consider that "peak oil" (that point at which all the easy-to-get sweet light crude is exhausted) might be a myth or urban legend. Consider the possibility that what you think you know about oil coming from dinosaurs (organic decayed material i.e. "fossil fuel") is false. It's actually mineral-based, not organic according to some sources including the Russian study at gasresources.net/. Consider that if an oil well dries up, all you have to do is let it sit for ten years and come back and turn the pumps back on and voila! Texas Tea, Black Gold... The wells refill themselves (many sources for this easily searchable). Impossible? Well, let's just say Shell and Exxon BP and others don't want you to know about their dirty little secrets. They wouldn't be able to rake in massive record breaking profits if you didn't believe they were past "peak oil" and all the worlds oil was locked up in shale or prohibitively expensive to extract.

Notice from truefusion:
There's a limit as to how many QUOTE bbcodes you can use. Once you reach the limit of 10, please use CODE bbecodes. Thanks. ;)

Edited by Watermonkey, 06 February 2007 - 06:54 PM.


#8 adriantc

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 06:43 AM

You've only tried to answer a small part of the question... What will happen with the cars when the oil runs out? But I'm sure there will be far greater problems then having a car on oil when there is no oil left in the world. Everything we have today is made (at least partially) out of oil...Everything that has plastic in it, even food it made out of oil. I think you only need the fingers from one hand to count the parts of industry that don't need oil to function. Things will change when we will run out of oil... And it's not only cars, even the most basic stuff will have to change... So cars maybe just the beginning, our whole life style will have to change, to adapt to a world without oil.
I've heard that in 40 years will run of out of oil... That may happen even faster. I think it will be a disaster for world's economy specially for the countries that relay on oil as their main source of income. Richer countries like Dubai have realized that when the oil runs out they will have a serious money trouble... That is why some of them are turning their eyes on tourism.
Anyway the oil problem is far larger then we can possibly imagine. Fuel Cell cars, hybrid cars are very possible. But you can't power a whole industry on electricity alone... Electricity simple does not provide enough power to keep machines running and that is not because you can't produce so much power but because you can't transport that much in an effective way. Besides even if an effective alternative to oil is found, a few decades will pass before the whole industry will be able to adapt and make the switch. Not to mention the money that will have to be invested...
So you see our life will be so much different when the oil runs out. I'm afraid it won't be a very peaceful transition from a oil based global economy to something else. Tides will turn for those countries that ruled the world by controlling the oil flow... like the USA. Just a few days ago Bush said in it's speech that America needs to double it's oil reserve. I'm sure the crisis will end with a new world order. The world, in my opinion, is going to have a very wild ride once the oil runs out.

#9 DaEmOnFiRe

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 06:47 AM

Im not an expert on energy resources and their usage, therefore my views on this matter are simple. Basically, i think when oil runs out, we'll either mainly use nuclear energy or solar energy. The best thing about nuclear energy is that it is extremely efficient. The down side is it produces a hazardous waste, which eventually will take up alot of space. The more likely alternative energy resource is solar energy. Although it doesn't have the effiency of nuclear energy, it is much more safe to use.

I know what i said was very vague and this topic can be discussed in muhc wider detail, but thats all i know on the topic.

#10 osknockout

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 01:00 PM

Hmm... you're assuming that oil cannot be manually produced of course when you say "what will happen when there's no more oil?" Most probably governments will try some desperate attempt to create it synthetically while switching to any other hydrocarbon sources they can find. And if THAT doesn't provide a ready solution, we'd probably fall into a temporary Dark Age leaving countries like Brazil (which I hear uses mostly ethanol grown from its own fields) and the OPEC countries which will have hoarded their last resources still properly functioning.

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So cars maybe just the beginning, our whole life style will have to change, to adapt to a world without oil.
I think that change is already underway. In the past few years, we've seen the rise of hybrid cars to markets - sure few people buy them, but the number's surely growing each year - and the lack of infinite oil has already entered the public mind. I think it's safe to say that we're just expecting a lifestyle change.

But on the good side, Exxon-Mobil will finally have shot its profits to the abyss. ;)

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Besides even if an effective alternative to oil is found, a few decades will pass before the whole industry will be able to adapt and make the switch. Not to mention the money that will have to be invested...
Actually, I think we tend to surprise ourselves when we're desperate. I mean, hey, if we went from splitting the atom to making the A-bomb in 13 years, how fast do you think finding a relatively efficient new source of energy will be? Not to mention how much money each nation would put into new energy and vehicle/industry-modification/replacement programs. I'd say it'd be around 8 years MAX to replace all these automobiles and industries so they could use the new energy source.

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Consider the possibility that what you think you know about oil coming from dinosaurs (organic decayed material ie. "fossile fuel") is false. It's actually mineral-based, not organic. Consider that if an oil well dries up, all you have to do is let it sit for ten years and come back and turn the pumps back on and voila! Texas Tea, Black Gold... The wells refill themselves.
Woah... wait, what's your source for this? And if it is actually mineral based, there surely are a limited number of these types of minerals in some areas, so it can't keep refilling every 10 years, right?




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