17 replies to this topic

[adriantc]

I was having an argument with a friend of mine a few days ago on the fact that all the Western civilizations are on a slow, but steady decline. Not necessary economical decline, but a far more important and with far greater consequences cultural and moral decay which in time will inevitable lead to the downfall of the Western hegemony.
I strongly believe in this theory. I consider its outcome not a question of if, but a question of when. You may call me a pessimist, you may think I see only the part of the glass that is empty, but we all see the signs. I believe the Western civilizations are at or have passed the peak of their development. Remember that after the shining Roman Empire came the Dark Ages... History is known to repeat itself.
The signs are, in my opinion, easy to see. Global warming and the end of the fossil fuels will destroy the financial foundations of the West. The economies based on a great industry will be the first to go down. The increasingly bigger disasters caused by global warming won't help either.
But far more important is the moral decay of the West. Everyday I see on the news children shooting their deskmates, teachers or parents. We are all part of the "eat crap, get fat" cult (myself a McDonald's & KFC junky, although not fat at all) and more and more the giant multinational corporations control every part of our life, with the New World Order becoming an ever greater threat. The capitalistic world promotes all the wrong virtues it's masterpiece being the great money chase. The fast development of this world makes us loose our identities. The psychologists say that someone that does not remember it's "roots" is easily manipulated. And that is what TV does best...
Todays world no longer has the values it was built on. That is why it's decline is predictable and ultimately inevitable. It's just like a train going too fast... it will inevitably derail.

This is my grim view of the times to come. How do you see the future of the world?

[serverph]

i tend to think it's not just a decline of western civilization (with emphasis on western), but it is rather more of a widespread decline of a global proportion which may eventually lead to a life extinction scenario. eastern civilization (or our side of the world ) is not immune from what you point of as a decline. decline of human civilization is a more apt term i'd use, so east and west (and north and south for those fixated with directions ) is definitely included. that does make me more pessimist than you?

which is why i always take stock of survival techniques i could learn, since there may come a time (who knows, it could be in our lifetimes!) when a total collapse of human civilization will occur, and it will become a dog-eat-dog world (not that it ain't already ) and the survival of the fittest is every living man's credo, every man on his own. makes me wish there is an entire world where one can migrate to, if push comes to shove and the only way to survive is to leave earth. perhaps it is now more than ever that a hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy is needed (don't forget your towels, people!). or maybe a set of kryptonian crystals which embodies all the knowledge of the entire civilizations of the human race, so that when humans decide to self-destruct, every knowledge will still be available for the remaining survivors to recreate our world and our way of life (minus the pitfalls which can lead to another extinction-level scenario).

and if there were DNA strands in our genetic chain for human values such as greed and envy (which i'd say are man's main achilles' heel), then we should splice them out of our DNAs to help future generations persist in this world. could be the only way human life can project itself unscathed throughout time.

come to think of it, i may be wrong in thinking i'm a pessimist at all, since i allow for a small glimmer of hope for the human race to will it to survive. and adriantc, i would say you're seeing the glass half-full too to even think of the future. half-empty people are unlikely to show interest whatsoever for the future, much more think of an an entire civilization's (western or not) future. the signs are there, the only thing which remains is for the human race to take note of them, and tread the road to survival or extinction.

[A200]

Well Australia is going good at the moment- not for long.

Saturday is the main federal election and it's tipped to mean the ALP get in and Liberals get out... say BYEBYE to workplace relations... see how GDP drop... see interest rates rise... see our standard of living drop... RIP Australia,

Western Civilization will eventually die as technology gets bigger and bigger, we'll have wars like none ever seen before, and we'll end up all dying on one big horrible war...

[Liam_CF]

I also see this happening. There isn't really much differing between different places and places aren't really that unique...

There are lots of bad things happening in today's society.

Not good.

[adriantc]

serverph, on Nov 19 2007, 09:38 PM, said:

i tend to think it's not just a decline of western civilization (with emphasis on western), but it is rather more of a widespread decline of a global proportion which may eventually lead to a life extinction scenario. eastern civilization (or our side of the world ) is not immune from what you point of as a decline. decline of human civilization is a more apt term i'd use, so east and west (and north and south for those fixated with directions ) is definitely included. that does make me more pessimist than you?

which is why i always take stock of survival techniques i could learn, since there may come a time (who knows, it could be in our lifetimes!) when a total collapse of human civilization will occur, and it will become a dog-eat-dog world (not that it ain't already ) and the survival of the fittest is every living man's credo, every man on his own. makes me wish there is an entire world where one can migrate to, if push comes to shove and the only way to survive is to leave earth. perhaps it is now more than ever that a hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy is needed (don't forget your towels, people!). or maybe a set of kryptonian crystals which embodies all the knowledge of the entire civilizations of the human race, so that when humans decide to self-destruct, every knowledge will still be available for the remaining survivors to recreate our world and our way of life (minus the pitfalls which can lead to another extinction-level scenario).

and if there were DNA strands in our genetic chain for human values such as greed and envy (which i'd say are man's main achilles' heel), then we should splice them out of our DNAs to help future generations persist in this world. could be the only way human life can project itself unscathed throughout time.

come to think of it, i may be wrong in thinking i'm a pessimist at all, since i allow for a small glimmer of hope for the human race to will it to survive. and adriantc, i would say you're seeing the glass half-full too to even think of the future. half-empty people are unlikely to show interest whatsoever for the future, much more think of an an entire civilization's (western or not) future. the signs are there, the only thing which remains is for the human race to take note of them, and tread the road to survival or extinction.

I'm not so sure that this decline is happening everywhere in the world... As my theory goes the decline of the West is largely due to the ongoing (read... too fast) technological discoveries which on one side help us with our daily lives but also makes us incredibly stupid. The TV and what is represents is the peak of this trend. The problem with this technological advance is that it is not something slow; a process taking a few generations; generations in which the population could adapt - it is rather a day to day improvement and that releases many problems from our brains. On the short term that is good, but on the long run it makes all of us extremely docile to what, for example, is being said on TV. In other words it makes all of us a bunch of sheeps one dummer then the other. That can't be good...
This improvements never take place is less developed countries, or if it does it is much much more slower. So basically that keeps their intelectual potential...Yeah you may call this decline a global one but it is far more accelerated in the West then in the East.
I agree with what you say ... it will finally become a fight where everyone fights for himself. Maybe the end of human civilization is somewhat needed... After every great extinction or collapse came a period of prosperity. After the dinosaurs gone extinct came humans (the cave man wouldn't have stood a chance against a T-Rex no matter how smart he were). It may be natural that we eventually die out and let evolution make a new leap foreword just like with the dinosaurs. After all nothing is forever. The propose of life may simply be to end...
Your also right with the DNA part... But I'm sure we can't fix that... Its within our fibers. If we wouldn't feel greed or envy we wouldn't need laws, we would have a great society. But I think greed or envy is somewhat a part of the animal we inherit so unfortunately there is no way we will loose them.

[Mermaid711]

adriantc, on Nov 19 2007, 12:32 PM, said:

I was having an argument with a friend of mine a few days ago on the fact that all the Western civilizations are on a slow, but steady decline. Not necessary economical decline, but a far more important and with far greater consequences cultural and moral decay which in time will inevitable lead to the downfall of the Western hegemony.

Um, excuse me, but I happen to be a western citizen, and I will tell you that these views are biased, and since what you cite in this post as your sources of information happen to be television and other media sources, you really don't know what you are talking about now do you Mr. Romania.

Quote

I strongly believe in this theory. I consider its outcome not a question of if, but a question of when. You may call me a pessimist, you may think I see only the part of the glass that is empty, but we all see the signs. I believe the Western civilizations are at or have passed the peak of their development. Remember that after the shining Roman Empire came the Dark Ages... History is known to repeat itself.

You still don't know what you are talking about. The eastern civillizations are just farther behind us (with the exception of england, russia and germany) and so you guys are jeallous

And yes we all know that history is known to repeat itself, but uhhh THAT WAS IN ROMANIA!

It has been nearly 200 years since the Civil war, and us westerners tend to learn from our mistakes.

Quote

The signs are, in my opinion, easy to see. Global warming and the end of the fossil fuels will destroy the financial foundations of the West. The economies based on a great industry will be the first to go down. The increasingly bigger disasters caused by global warming won't help either.

Yes, but I guess they don't have E8 ethonal over there. . . And there is increasing proof that there isn't such thing as Global warming, that the Earth has heating and cooling cycles. . . I knew Al Gore was full of Bull Shhhh.... Crap =]

There is no scientific proof that those disasters are caused by the global warming, which is increasingly disagreed with by the people who actually have an education.

And if you are so worried about the fuel, the vast majority of that stuff comes from russia and the middle east.

Quote

But far more important is the moral decay of the West. Everyday I see on the news children shooting their deskmates, teachers or parents. We are all part of the "eat crap, get fat" cult (myself a McDonald's & KFC junky, although not fat at all) and more and more the giant multinational corporations control every part of our life, with the New World Order becoming an ever greater threat. The capitalistic world promotes all the wrong virtues it's masterpiece being the great money chase. The fast development of this world makes us loose our identities. The psychologists say that someone that does not remember it's "roots" is easily manipulated. And that is what TV does best...

Fast food=BLEH!

Sure I don't always have time to eat healthy, but I am not the american idiot you see on TV that gorges on junkfood. Weather you eat fast food or health food does not have anything to do with the downfall of a civillization.

And being capitalistic as long as you're not a fascist capitilist is what drives this part of the world. you europeans have it all wrong.

And the thing about the children shooting there schoolmates: that rarley happens. The media likes to make everything appear worse than it is in real life. My bes advice to you is ignore what you see on TV. . . that stuff rots your brain. . .

Quote

Todays world no longer has the values it was built on. That is why it's decline is predictable and ultimately inevitable. It's just like a train going too fast... it will inevitably derail.

Mmmmm yet again, no Idea what we're talking about. . . I'm going to hold my comment on this one. . . =D

[adriantc]

Quote

Um, excuse me, but I happen to be a western citizen, and I will tell you that these views are biased, and since what you cite in this post as your sources of information happen to be television and other media sources, you really don't know what you are talking about now do you Mr. Romania.

Hello Mr. USA! First of all I haven't quoted anything from any media sources, TV or otherwise. They are simply my impression...
Now I don't like you attitude... I think it's something borrowed from your president... You know the "we are the strongest, the most powerful nation in the world... we can do whatever we want with anybody" does Iraq sound a bell for you.

Quote

You still don't know what you are talking about. The eastern civillizations are just farther behind us (with the exception of england, russia and germany) and so you guys are jeallous laugh.gif

And yes we all know that history is known to repeat itself, but uhhh THAT WAS IN ROMANIA!

It has been nearly 200 years since the Civil war, and us westerners tend to learn from our mistakes.

I like that tone even less and it really needs an answer. I don't know why when you read Western civilization you read USA. I mean the developed world (a world that Romania barely makes into... but it's not just a dot on the map... and if you would stop being that arrogant and read history you would understand why).
It might be a shock to you but the USA is not the center of the universe. The world will go round just the same without the USA. Maybe even better who knows? So please do drop that arrogance fast.

Yeah... 200 years you say...You great civilization is like how old? 400 years? Life in my poor country is dated to well... beginning of the human civilization (yeah... you have read that well... the remains of the oldest modern human.... *person* sapiens sapiens .... from the entire Europe where found in Romania). But if you do want facts... Herodotus spoke of the people living in present day Romania in 513 BC. That puts it what 2000 years older that your imported civilization?
I'm not sure you can call it a civilization since you are mostly ... well english. If it weren't for american football, baseball, hotdog and Halloween you could be called tourists from England forcing your way of life into the natives (another unhappy episode of your great history... the one you learned so much from ... hint hint Iraq). So can you call yourself a civilization when you only have 400 years of history and the biggest difference between you and someone from england are some games, a few words and the fact you drive on the other way of the road.
Beside the war with mexico, the independence war and the civil war what other great and destructive wars where waged on american soil? Your civilization is so great not because you are so smart as a people, but because you had what is called a gigantic geographical advantage. There is a huge water mass between you and the birthplace of the human civilization.

And as much as you don't like it history repeats itself in USA too. Yeah you learned so much out of Vietnam, you learned so much out of killing the native Indians. And you learned so much from the first term of Bush that you simply had to elect him one more time! I do have to admit you do learn from your mistakes.

It took the great Roman Empire 300 years do fall. I would give America 20% of that...

Quote

Yes, but I guess they don't have E8 ethonal over there. . . And there is increasing proof that there isn't such thing as Global warming, that the Earth has heating and cooling cycles. . . I knew Al Gore was full of Bull Shhhh.... Crap =]There is no scientific proof that those disasters are caused by the global warming, which is increasingly disagreed with by the people who actually have an education.

And if you are so worried about the fuel, the vast majority of that stuff comes from russia and the middle east.

As I said we aren't do developed as you are... But with or without ethonal I can fell and see the Global Warming. I don't need a scientist to tell me that. When I was 10 there wasn't a winter without lots and lots of snow. For around 5 years now no more snow (none whatsoever). Its hotter and hotter in the summer, more and more floods in the spring, bigger and bigger storms in autumn. I'm sure global warming has nothing to do with that!
And now that you brought that up I have to attack you great lifestyle once more... the vast majority of that stuff comes from russia and the middle east?!?! Yeah you have made a habit of getting it yourselves... And no necessary because your great industry needs it it's because the great american people drives huge cars that eat twice as much fuel as a european car (us undeveloped one) does. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Thinking about it better its normal you deny the existence of global warming since you could be somewhat responsible of it.

Quote

Fast food=BLEH!

Sure I don't always have time to eat healthy, but I am not the american idiot you see on TV that gorges on junkfood. Weather you eat fast food or health food does not have anything to do with the downfall of a civillization.

And being capitalistic as long as you're not a fascist capitilist is what drives this part of the world. you europeans have it all wrong.

And the thing about the children shooting there schoolmates: that rarley happens. The media likes to make everything appear worse than it is in real life. My bes advice to you is ignore what you see on TV. . . that stuff rots your brain. . . laugh.gif

maybe you don't like fast food, but the fact that 40% of the americans are fatter then normal paints a pretty different picture! Not directly, but it shows we are mentally weak. We have no longer time to eat properly because we are all running to get... "time is money" Isn't that what capitalists say?
I don't know what you consider often, but we are 22.000.000 and as far as I now shooting in school never happened in Romania. Yes the undeveloped Romania. So you might reconsider the fact that twice a year is a rare....
And of course not the TV does not brainwash... They faked the elections on TV who could it brainwash people. Considering you elected Bush again I suggest you reconsider that too...

Quote

Mmmmm yet again, no Idea what we're talking about. . . I'm going to hold my comment on this one. . . =D

I am not going to hold my comment on this one... You americans act as if there isn't anyone in the world beside you. What happened in Iraq is only the last drop... Nothing is forever... It shall come a time when you will have to answer for what you have done. No matter how soon or late that would be the trial of history will happen...

Edited by adriantc, 22 November 2007 - 05:47 PM.

[serverph]

adriantc, on Nov 22 2007, 02:56 AM, said:

I'm not so sure that this decline is happening everywhere in the world... As my theory goes the decline of the West is largely due to the ongoing (read... too fast) technological discoveries which on one side help us with our daily lives but also makes us incredibly stupid. The TV and what is represents is the peak of this trend. The problem with this technological advance is that it is not something slow; a process taking a few generations; generations in which the population could adapt - it is rather a day to day improvement and that releases many problems from our brains. On the short term that is good, but on the long run it makes all of us extremely docile to what, for example, is being said on TV. In other words it makes all of us a bunch of sheeps one dummer then the other. That can't be good...
This improvements never take place is less developed countries, or if it does it is much much more slower. So basically that keeps their intelectual potential...Yeah you may call this decline a global one but it is far more accelerated in the West then in the East.

you'd be surprised how much more backward the west can be than they actually *think* they are. westerners claim to have advanced in the technological front but it's just a facade. don't take me wrong, but the cradle of civilization is not the west.

as for the "attack" on media, it could just be your own perception. the media is there to dish out information, and for the public to thresh out the nitty-gritty details and form their opinion after a thorough weighing of all the information. but i could agree that there are individuals (which can amount to millions) which are easily swayed by media for lack of an active mind. it's a great length to blame to media for the "onslaught" you perceive it inflicts on the public, but i'd much more blame the individuals for lapping up everything they see and hear in media -- hook, line and sinker. so much for a civilization when the people who make it up are not mindful enough to think for themselves. after all, only in the west do we hear about people dissing the existence of dinosaurs in the first place, or at the very least create a $27 million museum to perpetuate the idea of dinosaurs cohabiting with humans in history. cave men (and women) and dinosaurs coexisting? and that you can't blame on TV, right? oh yeah, the flintstones! but heck, anybody should be able to recognize fact from fiction (or entertainment), to be aware that any form of humans came only 65.5 million years AFTER dinosaurs went kaput. maybe i ought to concede then that the western civilization is really on a rapid downhill, as compared to eastern civilization.

adriantc, on Nov 22 2007, 02:56 AM, said:

I agree with what you say ... it will finally become a fight where everyone fights for himself. Maybe the end of human civilization is somewhat needed... After every great extinction or collapse came a period of prosperity. After the dinosaurs gone extinct came humans (the cave man wouldn't have stood a chance against a T-Rex no matter how smart he were). It may be natural that we eventually die out and let evolution make a new leap foreword just like with the dinosaurs. After all nothing is forever. The propose of life may simply be to end...

it is possible that human annihilation could spur a leap to a greater civilization. but with what humans are doing right now, it is more possible that humans will not only bring their own annihilation but of all other forms of life as well. dinosaurs, monsters we portray them to be by their nature, is much more docile than humans. and humans are the scourge of this planet. we could not hope to make evolution work its formula of life if humans had its way to obliterating all life in the end.

adriantc, on Nov 22 2007, 02:56 AM, said:

Your also right with the DNA part... But I'm sure we can't fix that... Its within our fibers. If we wouldn't feel greed or envy we wouldn't need laws, we would have a great society. But I think greed or envy is somewhat a part of the animal we inherit so unfortunately there is no way we will loose them.

yeah, it's just wishful thinking for me to even hope greed and envy lies in our genes ready to be eradicated. it's human nature, i know (animals still we all are (class mammalia to be exact)).

[hansen]

Sorry guys but i cant agree with your pessimistic point of wiew.

sure the world does have a problem with global warming, this challenge will be the next big adventure for mankind.
take a look in to the history books, each time mankind have faced a challenge, we have found a solution.
just as we will with global warming. the solutions are plenty, cover a 15% of sahara with solar panels and all of europes energy needs will be covered. dessert areas are plenty in the world, solarpanels in difrent form would be abel to deliver most needed energy. if we want to pay for it.

extracting he3 from regulith on the moon are another solution, 25gram he3 would be sufficient to cover the energy needs in usa, 200gram would cover the needs of all the world. in theory he3 are the ideel fuel for fusion energy, the only problem are: it is allmost unknown on earth, estimated there are less then 1 gram on earth....
on the moon it is plentyfull, layered in the regolith from the solarwind.

placing large solararrays on lagrange point 1, beteewn earth and the sun, and transfer the energy down to earth wia microwawes will make a dual solution. 1 it will take out a fration of the ligth from the sun and that way the heating on earth will slow down. 2 it will make fossil fuel a part of the past.

that western civilization should be declining? i am very sorry but i cant se that.
I se the change of society, changes to the way peopol interact.
I se evulotion.

Then a thing about wars, the world have never seen fewer wars as now. take a look back in time, war have been the normallity not the exception as it is now.
never before has there been so few dictatorships on earth
never have so few peopol died during torture

I have to side with the optimists

Best regards
Peter

[adriantc]

hansen, on Dec 12 2007, 11:48 PM, said:

Sorry guys but i cant agree with your pessimistic point of wiew.

sure the world does have a problem with global warming, this challenge will be the next big adventure for mankind.
take a look in to the history books, each time mankind have faced a challenge, we have found a solution.
just as we will with global warming. the solutions are plenty, cover a 15% of sahara with solar panels and all of europes energy needs will be covered. dessert areas are plenty in the world, solarpanels in difrent form would be abel to deliver most needed energy. if we want to pay for it.

extracting he3 from regulith on the moon are another solution, 25gram he3 would be sufficient to cover the energy needs in usa, 200gram would cover the needs of all the world. in theory he3 are the ideel fuel for fusion energy, the only problem are: it is allmost unknown on earth, estimated there are less then 1 gram on earth....
on the moon it is plentyfull, layered in the regolith from the solarwind.

placing large solararrays on lagrange point 1, beteewn earth and the sun, and transfer the energy down to earth wia microwawes will make a dual solution. 1 it will take out a fration of the ligth from the sun and that way the heating on earth will slow down. 2 it will make fossil fuel a part of the past.

that western civilization should be declining? i am very sorry but i cant se that.
I se the change of society, changes to the way peopol interact.
I se evulotion.

Then a thing about wars, the world have never seen fewer wars as now. take a look back in time, war have been the normallity not the exception as it is now.
never before has there been so few dictatorships on earth
never have so few peopol died during torture

I have to side with the optimists

Best regards
Peter

Do you really think the oil corporations will let those technologies mature? No. Just like in the pharmaceutical industry where there is no real need for a cure for HIV or cancer (a healthy men does not pay for medicine)... As long as there will be a drop of oil in the ground the world will still run on oil!
For optimists like you I strongly suggest you see this movie... Who killed the electric car?
And it's not only the greed of the oil companies that will keep the oil flowing, but the very fabric of the world economy. You can power a car with electricity. You can even power a bus with it, but you can't power heavy industrial machinery with it. Whoever controls the oil controls the world. If you would control oil and such control the world would you tell the world... hey use other fuels- don't use oil! Of course not! You would like to keep your position. That is what the USA does... Iraq wasn't about the war on terror, but about the black gold, the so important oil! I may even say that at this point the world is very much doomed. We can't simply change so much of our lives in so little time!

The world hasn't seen fewer wars because the world never saw such a total domination from one single country. At this point the world has one ruler... the United States of America. Once it will show signs of weakness (and I already think it does) other countries will come forward to claim the world. One certain candidate now is China. It has the men-power and the economy to one day dominate the world (remember that 80% of everything is made in China) Not to mention the fact fewer wars don't necessarily mean fewer deaths and less destruction. In WW2 there were 60 million death in one war, far more then in tens of wars. so there are fewer but with much more destructive capabilities. Remember it only takes one war to wipe out the human kind... millions of years of evolution destroyed in one single moment. So you have to see the danger is far greater now!