22 replies to this topic

[omarsdali]

I found this in a different forum in a different language so I translated it to share it with you guys:

Quote

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

القانون الأزلى الذى يحكم كل النظريات العلمية , و تتولد منه كل القوانين الفيزيائية فى كل العلوم , هو قانون بقاء الطاقة , والذى ينص على:
" الطاقة لا تفنى ولا تستحدث من عدم , و انما تنتقل من صورة الى أخرى "

و مهما حاول العلماء من اثبات وجود ما يسمى الطاقة السالبة التى تتولد منها جسيمات الذرة , ووجود هذه الكتل السالبة فى بعد آخر , فهو لا يعد خرقا للقانون , و انما سيرا على نهجه من تحول من صورة لأخرى

ما يعنينا فى هذا القانون التالى : ان كانت الطاقة لا تفنى ولا تستحدث , من أين جاءت كل الطاقة الموجودة فى الكون الآن ؟

سؤال بسيط , يستحيل الاجابة عنه علميا الا باجابة واحدة :

لا بد من وجود قوة فوق القانون نفسه , قوة خالقة , قوة أوجدت الطاقة و المادة , ثم صنعت القانون الذى ينظم عمل الطاق
, قوة تأتى آخر الزمان , عندما يحين الأوان , لتخرق القانون مرة أخرى , بل لتزيله تماما , و تفنى كل أشكال الطاقة و المادة التى أوجدتها أول مرة (" كما بدأكم تعودون") ,قوة تقيم نهاية للكون المعروف

هذه القوة باختصار و دون سفسطة علمية هي قدرة الله عز و جل , الذى تحدى الانسان أن يخلق جناح بعوضة (من لاشئ , من الفراغ الأزلى) .

يا أيها الملاحدة , يا من تدعون ادراك العلوم , وفهم العالم دون اله , كيف تفهمون ذلك , بالرغم من أنه لا يستقيم علميا , فضلا عن عدم استقامته منطقيا (فلكل تصميم لابد من وجود مصمم , فما بالك من الكون والخلق المعقدين , صدفة؟! اجمع صفائح الحديد و الزجاج و المطاط , رجهم معا لملايين السنين , لن تخرج منهم سيارة مرسيدس , فأي عته يتستر به أولئك المتفلسفون)

ختاما , فان باب المناقشة مفتوح , ومن رأى خللا فى هذا الاستدلال فليراجعنى


و السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

[hr=noshade][/hr]
In the name of God most gracious most merciful

The universal law that governs all scientific theories, and upon which all the physics theories are based, is the law of conservation of energy that states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.
What concerns us in this law is the following: If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?

A simple question that can only be answered scientifically with one answer:
There must be a force that’s above the law itself, a creating force, a force that brought energy and matter into existence, and then put in place the law that organizes the behavior of energy, a force that will come at the end of time, to break the law a second time, or rather to remove it completely, and destroy all forms of energy and matter it created at the beginning, a force that will bring the universe as we know it to an end.
This force in short is the power of God, who dared the human beings to just create a mosquito’s wing ( from nothing ).

O atheists, you who claim to understand science, and understand the world without a god, how do you understand that ? Even though it doesn’t make sense scientifically or logically, for every simply design must have a designer, let alone the universe and the complex creatures, coincidence ? Gather the sheets of metal and the glass and the rubber, and mix them together for some millions of years, you won’t get out of them a Mercedes!!

That’s the end of the translation. What do you guys think about this ? Are there any flaws in this? Or does it make sense ? The door of debate is open…


SOURCE OF ARABIC MATERIAL: http://www.ok-eg.com...p?main=1&id=286
TRANSLATED BY ME

Notice from truefusion:

All material that is not yours must be placed in QUOTE BBcodes.

I am putting the material that's not mine in QUOTES, but the english translation is mine.

Notice from truefusion:

Only moderators and admin may use the NOTE feature. Re-quoting. Do not undo what a moderator has done.

Edited by truefusion, 29 November 2007 - 02:32 AM.

[Liam_CF]

This doesnt make sense to me...

[anwiii]

omarsdali, on Nov 28 2007, 11:32 AM, said:

I found this in a different forum in a different language so I translated it to share it with you guys:
In the name of God most gracious most merciful

The universal law that governs all scientific theories, and upon which all the physics theories are based, is the law of conservation of energy that states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.
What concerns us in this law is the following: If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?

A simple question that can only be answered scientifically with one answer:
There must be a force that’s above the law itself, a creating force, a force that brought energy and matter into existence, and then put in place the law that organizes the behavior of energy, a force that will come at the end of time, to break the law a second time, or rather to remove it completely, and destroy all forms of energy and matter it created at the beginning, a force that will bring the universe as we know it to an end.
This force in short is the power of God, who dared the human beings to just create a mosquito’s wing ( from nothing ).

O atheists, you who claim to understand science, and understand the world without a god, how do you understand that ? Even though it doesn’t make sense scientifically or logically, for every simply design must have a designer, let alone the universe and the complex creatures, coincidence ? Gather the sheets of metal and the glass and the rubber, and mix them together for some millions of years, you won’t get out of them a Mercedes!!

That’s the end of the translation. What do you guys think about this ? Are there any flaws in this? Or does it make sense ? The door of debate is open…
SOURCE OF ARABIC MATERIAL: http://www.ok-eg.com...p?main=1&id=286
TRANSLATED BY ME

Notice from truefusion:

All material that is not yours must be placed in QUOTE BBcodes.

Notice from omarsdali to truefusion:

I am putting the material that's not mine in QUOTES, but the english translation is mine.

the question of a higher power than myself or my knowledge has never been in question. i pretty much always believed in a higher power. i went to church for 18 years of my life, then i started questioning "god". then i became somewhat athiest to what i know and believe now. the question to me is, what IS this higher power?

i feel we are so ignorant as human beings that we will grasp on to anything that might make sense to us just to satisfy our own insecurites in where we come from. ignorance sometimes is that higher power to others. for example. i believe in psychic abilities 100% but just because someone does a trick to make it look like he has psychic abilites, does it mean he has psyhic abilities? some people believe yes, but that is their ignorance creating some higher power so what do we actually know about how god exists and the day of judgement exists without being fooled what a higher power really is? you can't and there is no scientific proof to back it up

to go one step further in your scientific proof that proves your theory, god is energy obviously since you and all others consider god to be a higher "power". so if the scientific proof is correct as you are assuming in this scenario, then god was created by yet another higher power. what power is higher than god? who knows. and until you can tell me what this power is and give it a name, then your theory has holes and is there has been no proof to it even assuming that the scientists' theories are fact.

on the flip side, you can say that god was the original energy and he controls all energy around us thus making it impossible to create or take away energy but then there would be no scientific theories now to base that on. who's to say there is one god anyway? what proof is there to that? there is none and what scientists have discovered wont support any factual basis to that.

now that we talked about "god", what is your basis in saying the judgement day exists? because if there is a god, there must be a judgement day because it was in a book that was written by someone other than god himself(sorry for the masculine version for all the women out there...just easier to say)? there isn't any scientific proof that supports that theory either.

fact is, all you mentione was a theory. this theory has been debated by our earliest ancestors why? because obiously we are not ment to know all the answers. with logic. i mean, logic is good for some things, but not to solve a deep rooted issue in all of us. that comes from your inner soul. your spirit. your intuition. you gut. what actually makes sense to you without logic. why do i say without logic? because people have tried to answer the question you are trying to solve to today with logic. both sides can have smart and logical answers to it. logic is also man made. comes from old school philosophy which is alot older that psychology.

so my point in the last paragraph is simply that because we don't have all the answers and probably never will in our lifetime here on earth, then we are ignorant and because of that, the answers don't lie in logic. the asnwers lie deep down inside ourselves. a feeling of knowledge we get inside....deep inside our own selves when we can relax and clear our mind, and be in touch and in tune with our inner soul and spirit and what all of us have inside us

[omarsdali]

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to go one step further in your scientific proof that proves your theory,

first of all, this is not my proof nor my theory, I just translated the proof, although I do beleive that god exists.

Quote

god is energy obviously since you and all others consider god to be a higher "power". so if the scientific proof is correct as you are assuming in this scenario, then god was created by yet another higher power. what power is higher than god? who knows. and until you can tell me what this power is and give it a name, then your theory has holes and is there has been no proof to it even assuming that the scientists' theories are fact.

god is not energy he is the creator of the energy. He created the energy from nothing. and he is not the 'power', he has that power. The power of creating things from nothing. The creator has the power of creating things from nothing, because he has that power he doesn't need another being to bring him into existance, because if he is in need of another being to bring him into existance then he can't have the power because he needs it himself.

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on the flip side, you can say that god was the original energy and he controls all energy around us thus making it impossible to create or take away energy but then there would be no scientific theories now to base that on.

If we say that god is the original energy, then we are back to the same question which we were trying to answer which is "Where did that original energy come from?"

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because if there is a god, there must be a judgement day because it was in a book that was written by someone other than god himself

no, but because the energy and the matter and everything was created that means it has a begining and since everything that has a begining must have an end, when its end comes that will be judgement day. It depends on what you are referring to when you say judgement day I guess.

Quote

fact is, all you mentione was a theory.

I am mentioning an answer to the question: "If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?" and if this answer is wrong then give us a better answer or try to correct this answer.

Edited by omarsdali, 28 November 2007 - 10:43 PM.

[etycto]

Quote

In the name of God most gracious most merciful

The universal law that governs all scientific theories, and upon which all the physics theories are based, is the law of conservation of energy that states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.
What concerns us in this law is the following: If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?

A simple question that can only be answered scientifically with one answer:
There must be a force that’s above the law itself, a creating force, a force that brought energy and matter into existence, and then put in place the law that organizes the behavior of energy, a force that will come at the end of time, to break the law a second time, or rather to remove it completely, and destroy all forms of energy and matter it created at the beginning, a force that will bring the universe as we know it to an end.
This force in short is the power of God, who dared the human beings to just create a mosquito’s wing ( from nothing ).

O atheists, you who claim to understand science, and understand the world without a god, how do you understand that ? Even though it doesn’t make sense scientifically or logically, for every simply design must have a designer, let alone the universe and the complex creatures, coincidence ? Gather the sheets of metal and the glass and the rubber, and mix them together for some millions of years, you won’t get out of them a Mercedes!!

That’s the end of the translation. What do you guys think about this ? Are there any flaws in this? Or does it make sense ? The door of debate is open…

the funny thing about this is that i argue very similar arguments with my science teacher last year in biology so its really funny that i tried to prove stuff the same scientists did. but this arguemnt has been argued the same way before and will continue to be argued this same way to come. i agree with what they say, but truthfully in a scintific world this would still be considered a theory just like the big bang theory.we'll all have to find out the truth when the time comes and for some of us it'll be way to late for them to enjoy it.

[anwiii]

omarsdali, on Nov 28 2007, 04:40 PM, said:

god is not energy he is the creator of the energy.

god is not energy? hmmm gee....ok.... god is the creator of energy.....hmmmm where are you getting your facts now? i thought we were assuming what the scientists say is fact. i must have been mistaken.

omarsdali, on Nov 28 2007, 04:40 PM, said:

I am mentioning an answer to the question: "If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?" and if this answer is wrong then give us a better answer or try to correct this answer.

i answered it already and disproved your theory. weren't you paying attention? all you based it on was assuming the scientists are correct

as far as my personal belief, i have already stated that as well.

you see, there is no basis to what you say because god exists either way in your theory. if energy cannot be created or destroyed, god exists. if energy CAN be created and destroyed, god exists. god exists eithr way in what you say so you aren't really creating much of an arguement, sorry....

[arnz]

Probably would have to be in the same question of, is there really a god?. There is no physical evidence or proof of whether a thing exists or not. I may be raised as a non-practising Catholic (as I dont really go to church except when it's at Christmas). But TBH, I guess it would be a wait and see type situation rather than using methods to find out, or going to the extremes like some people (eg cloning).

[omarsdali]

This is the main point of the idea above:

THE SCIENTIFIC FACT:

"The law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another." -Wikipedia

THE QUESTION:

"If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?"

A LOGICAL ANSWER(possibly the only logical answer):

"There must be a thing that is above the law itself, a thing that creates the energie first and then creates the law and puts it in place."

Whatever that thing is, god or not god, we don't know, because we can't prove what it is, but we know that there's a thing and we know that that thing can create.

Edited by omarsdali, 29 November 2007 - 11:21 PM.

[bbelnap2]

omarsdali, on Nov 29 2007, 04:18 PM, said:

This is the main point of the idea above:

THE SCIENTIFIC FACT:

"The law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another." -Wikipedia

THE QUESTION:

"If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?"

A LOGICAL ANSWER(possibly the only logical answer):

"There must be a thing that is above the law itself, a thing that creates the energie first and then creates the law and puts it in place."

Whatever that thing is, god or not god, we don't know, because we can't prove what it is, but we know that there's a thing and we know that that thing can create.

The largest hole I see is the assumption that energy was created, that there is a beginning. As finite beings we try to see things as finite, having a beginning and an end. What if that isn't true? What if it is true that energy cannot be created or destroyed? What if it has always existed, a timeline that expands out in both directions forever? The Universe had a beginning, but it came from energy and matter that existed before.

This thought doesn't prove or disprove God or gods one way or the other. God can still create our Universe with existing raw materials.

[omarsdali]

Quote

Quote

(omarsdali @ Nov 29 2007, 04:18 PM)
This is the main point of the idea above:

THE SCIENTIFIC FACT:

"The law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another." -Wikipedia

THE QUESTION:

"If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?"

A LOGICAL ANSWER(possibly the only logical answer):

"There must be a thing that is above the law itself, a thing that creates the energie first and then creates the law and puts it in place."

Whatever that thing is, god or not god, we don't know, because we can't prove what it is, but we know that there's a thing and we know that that thing can create.

The largest hole I see is the assumption that energy was created, that there is a beginning. As finite beings we try to see things as finite, having a beginning and an end. What if that isn't true? What if it is true that energy cannot be created or destroyed? What if it has always existed, a timeline that expands out in both directions forever? The Universe had a beginning, but it came from energy and matter that existed before.

This thought doesn't prove or disprove God or gods one way or the other. God can still create our Universe with existing raw materials.

I was discussing this idea a friend of mine at school today and he asked me why does the energy have to be created, why can't it exists forever. So that got me thinking and then a read your post and you make the same point and that got me thinking some more. and so here is what I came up with. The idea above is based on the big bang theory which states that the universe came from a point with zero volume and infinite mass, in other words, from nothing. so thats why the idea above is making the assumption that energy was created.
But if we assume a diffrent theory for the universe like the theory that says the universe is stable and has existed forever then this is a diffrent case and we would have to say that the energy has existed forever and in this case it would be wrong to assume that the energy was created.

Edited by omarsdali, 30 November 2007 - 06:49 AM.