32 replies to this topic

[Misanthrope]

Mistakes happen. In the fury of writing long-winded posts (or short, meaningless drivel) it's often easy to misspell a word here or there, or overlook a typo. I have no problem with that, nor with taking a little artistic license to spice up the post if it adds some intrinsic value to the thread. But lately, I've noticed some folks going out of their way to deliberately misspell common words and butcher the English language beyond recognition. To cite a recent example, one poster found it appropriate to spell "anyways" (which is not a real word, anyway) as "Anywayssss." I could go on, but the drift should be apparent. This blatant disregard for decent use of the language creates an unpleasant environment for those of us who still place value on written communication that resembles something above moron-grade level.

My suggestion is that Trap 17 staff make a stronger effort to enforce the rules and guidelines it already has in place to this effect, specifically:

Quote

Languages (warning): All posts made must be written in decent English.

Thank you for your consideration.

[sonesay]

I agree with you there, I'm not the best writer myself in the world but I'm trying to write correctly most of the time. It will help in work where you have to write clearly and consisly so that people will understand better. Its also good practice to try and enforce this on members so we do not get too many bad use of english on our forums. Sometimes it is hard to tell if a person is writing bad on purpose or if its their english.

[rvalkass]

If you spot a post that is badly written then please Report it using the Report button below the post. This alerts all of the staff members so it will be dealt with quicker than waiting for one of us to find it. Like you say, it is in the rules, and enforcing that rule makes sure that the forums contain high quality, readable posts.

Personally I correct posts I find that are written "in txt spk - lk dis" or use unnecessary abbreviations, such as "u" or "r" instead of "you" or "are". I've also corrected a few posts that contained hundreds of exclamation marks and smilies.

[velma]

Well....

The only problem with targeting every one with bad grammar is that you cannot always blame them for the bad language.

We have to keep in mind that not all the countries in the world are taught English as the first language .
These are a few reasons why a member might have "poor" English :-

1. Living in a place where English is not a priority. (In a place where the mother language or national language is spoken more than any other)

2. Due to bad teachers or their own faults, their English might be poor

3. Just plain old bad grammar.

4. Mobile Phones and their limits


I don't think a member should be warned, threatened, treated like a dunce just because he does not have a good grasp over a language.

On the other hand, It is our responsibility to help members with poor English. I think being members in a "community" makes us responsible for each other's personal growth. By personal growth I mean Self esteem, disabilities, flaws and so on.

I had even suggested to OpaQue that we open a sub forum where members can post useful topics on how to improve their English... But we could not as we needed members who would take out the time to open topics and help members.

We would also need a forum leader who would monitor that particular part of the forum... As we could not find anybody active enough for the job.. We decided to shelve the project.

But If you are interested in it Misanthrope, I will be extremely happy to get the forum started for you You can email OpaQue further IF you want to volunteer for this.. It is not a compulsion what so ever

Quote

Personally I correct posts I find that are written "in txt spk - lk dis" or use unnecessary abbreviations, such as "u" or "r" instead of "you" or "are". I've also corrected a few posts that contained hundreds of exclamation marks and smilies.

Been there and still doing that... Almost 15 out of 20 posts are in text language in the FeedBacker section

I once re wrote a post because it had too much of slang and looked like a giant text

[kobra500]

sometimes i'm just not in the mood to waste time woorying about how im writing which means you get me writing wrong spellings and stuff like 'u r kk'

[Misanthrope]

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“The only problem with targeting every one with bad grammar…”

A brief revisit of my initial suggestion will confirm no suggestion of “targeting” each and every poster who engages in bad grammar, nor ignorance of the board’s diverse customer base. Indeed, one can hardly spend any time at all on the forums without noticing the broad spectrum of cultural diversity and background, which in my opinion, only adds to Trap 17’s appeal. Few website forums can boast of such “universal” readership – or longevity. No one can fault a non-English speaking member for making grammatical errors here or there. Obviously, it goes with the territory and is to be expected to some degree. Ironically, I find the most bothersome and repetitive butchering is made by native speakers who, out of laziness or ineptitude, find it quite amusing to deliberately misspell and botch up the language. I imagine this creates a frustrating environment for non-native speakers who are legitimately trying to learn the English tongue. And naturally, it just pisses off anyone who places value on coherent communication.

Quote

“I don't think a member should be warned…”

I do hope this staff member is not suggesting staff disregard Trap 17 rules that clearly state a warning is to be given for not utilizing decent English.

Quote

“ threatened, treated like a dunce just because he does not have a good grasp over a language.”

No one, until now, has felt it necessary to use terms like “threaten” in reference to this thread - building up a straw man only works when you have enough straw, and even then, the effect is transparent to all but the idiot. Members should not in any way feel “threatened” when staff simply enforce rules that are already in place, and in clear sight for all to see. Further, members have a right to expect a certain level of lingual quality on the forums. Simply throwing the ball back in the topic-starter’s court strikes me as a cop-out, as a legitimate solicitation to man a “grammar” forum clearly would have been made by now. To their credit, the vast majority of members do make a valiant effort to at least write in decent English, regardless of country of origin, socio-economic status and so forth – though I fail to see what mobile phones have to do with anything. In a forum where words are the primary method of communication, it only makes sense to maintain decent grammatical standards, and one has to seriously question why anyone would take offense at enforcing said standards. And when we start making excuses for those who don’t even attempt a stab at decent English, we start down that slippery slope toward acceptance of the lowest common denominator. Somehow, I doubt that’s what anyone wants for the future of Trap 17.

[Saint_Michael]

I have to agree that giving a warning for improper use of the English isn't the right move because then everyone including the non-english speakers would be getting warnings, and that would take the fun out of posting. Granted everyone knows my reputation when it comes to writing the English language and I believe I have improved greatly over the last couple of years. Granted I still suck at it , but still to give warnings to something like for not capitalizing the I when referring to yourself or have to many comma's in a sentence, or it being a run on sentence would be a tad anal. Yeah I agree a warning about excessive use of letters and exclamation points would be warranted, but somethihng like the misuse of words such as anyways which is an adverb, but Nonstandard in the academic world.

Of course we cold debate all these internet words being entered into the dictionary world are rather annoying, and you be surprise how people get angry about this words such as anyways. However, Misa you have to remember though that most of the members are kids, and txt msg has ruined most of their minds a bit, and when they do go to college they will face that hard fact, and sadly back when I was in high school they didn't work much on the english language and thus my problem.

Of course you could say you can blame the American's for ruining the English language, but me personally I think their are too many rules to the English language. Granted that some of those rules make sense but some are just annoying, but as to which I have to get back to you on that .

[Watermonkey]

Saint_Michael, on Jan 18 2008, 07:24 PM, said:

I have to agree that giving a warning for improper use of the English isn't the right move because then everyone including the non-english speakers would be getting warnings, and that would take the fun out of posting. Granted everyone knows my reputation when it comes to writing the English language and I believe I have improved greatly over the last couple of years. Granted I still suck at it , but still to give warnings to something like for not capitalizing the I when referring to yourself or have to many comma's in a sentence, or it being a run on sentence would be a tad anal. Yeah I agree a warning about excessive use of letters and exclamation points would be warranted, but somethihng like the misuse of words such as anyways which is an adverb, but Nonstandard in the academic world.

Of course we cold debate all these internet words being entered into the dictionary world are rather annoying, and you be surprise how people get angry about this words such as anyways. However, Misa you have to remember though that most of the members are kids, and txt msg has ruined most of their minds a bit, and when they do go to college they will face that hard fact, and sadly back when I was in high school they didn't work much on the english language and thus my problem.

Of course you could say you can blame the American's for ruining the English language, but me personally I think their are too many rules to the English language. Granted that some of those rules make sense but some are just annoying, but as to which I have to get back to you on that .

I have to say, Mike, I used to shudder when I went to read one of your posts. Your main problem is you seem to loose focus on keeping the grammar clean. The post above can serve as an example of this. You start out with a paragraph that's pretty much void of anything that substantially tortures the language, but there are a couple simple typos that spell check could've caught. The second paragraph contains "cold" instead of "could" and English should be capitalized, but these are errors easily overlooked. Seems like the last paragraph falls apart, but either I was seeing things, or you came back and corrected it before I could tear it apart. Either way, overall, I'd agree with you: Your grammar and writing skills have improved considerably and are worthy of someone in the high school level in the inner city like in Baltimore or something. A compliment -if you recall what I said about a year ago on that topic. There's an analogy I'd like you all to consider:

In the United States of America, a nation of large, hairy, overgrown children who don't like to take responsibility for their own actions, there's been a growing sediment against the second amendment of the constitution which reads,

Quote

Amendment II (the Second Amendment) of the United States Constitution’s Bill of Rights declares a well-regulated militia as "being necessary to the security of a free State" and prohibits infringement of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." The meaning of the Second Amendment is one of the most misunderstood and disputed among the entire Bill of Rights.

-from Wiki

The language, while a bit unusual by today's standards, is very simple, and eloquent. It means, simply, what it says. But a growing body of people would rather blame an inanimate object (a firearm) for the senseless crimes such as rapes and murders instead of owning up to the fact that a firearm, left without human contact, can do no harm. These people try and claim the second amendment, the highest law of the land, is meant to arm militias, not individual people. It clearly does not mean this, and if you look at supporting documents and simply understand that all the amendments to the constitution are a protection of personal liberties, it would be clear to you too. To those who'd ban ownership of firearms, I say this: The constitution is the law of the land. If you don't like one of the amendments or you'd like to add one, there is a mechanism in place whereby you can either amend an amendment or add one. Simply follow the rules and change the law fairly. Until that time comes that the second amendment is changed to mean something you'd like better, the law is the law and it must be obeyed in a civilized society. Period, end of discussion!

So my point is this. If the rules of this forum are in need of revision or clarification, Shree should make the change. That's all. Misanthrope is simply pointing out that a certain rule is being enforced arbitrarily at best because it's too vague. Clarifying it might help, enforcing it would help too. I doubt she's really trying to come down hard on people such as you, Mike, or someone from Bangalore or Bangcock who's writing English as a second language. That wouldn't be reasonable. Someone who has demonstrated, either on the shoutbox or in a thread they are perfectly capable of putting together sentences and putting their thoughts down "on paper", but occasionally just get lazy or want to show people how "cool" they are by flaunting the rules and purposefully mangling the language should, by all reasonable interpretation of the rules in place at this time, be warned. How is this unreasonable? How is this overbearing? I see it as standard moderation and maintenance of this forum. Nothing more, nothing less. (BTW, in this paragraph, I originally mis-spelled seven words. Spell check is our friend. In Firefox, just right-click anywhere and activate spell check, then right click while hovering your arrow over a word with red underline and correct it. It's simple, only takes a minute, and makes you look like you're a freaking genius!)

Edited by Watermonkey, 19 January 2008 - 05:30 AM.

[Misanthrope]

It’s quite chivalrous (and strategic) of you to stand behind the staff member’s opinion, Saint Michael, as misplaced as that effort may be. Had you bothered to read my initial post, you would have garnered that I, in fact, agree with much of your polemic. To illustrate, I recently reported a post that contained numerous misspelled words and grammatical errors, some of which appeared to me deliberately made by someone who speaks English as a first language. I imagine the poor moderator spent a good deal of time cleaning up this member’s post. I think most would agree it's quite inconsiderate to post in post in poor English when you clearly know the language. It was not a matter of one un-capitalized or one misspelled word. The post in question had been a topic starter, thereby setting the tone for the rest of the thread, so I fail to see how reporting such a mess could be considered “anal” in any way. As long as the post was, I wouldn’t have bothered had it been a matter of one typo. Had it been just one sentence, than yes, one typo would definitely stand out. Furthermore, members are encouraged (or at least I assume they are) to report posts that violate Trap 17’s posted rules, which the post in question obviously did. I think it’s fairly clear when a non-native English speaker makes an honest mistake, but it’s also quite apparent when a native-speaker is just blatantly lazy or going out of his way to slaughter the language. Surely you’re not suggesting Trap 17 lower its’ standards by abandoning it’s “use of decent English” clause? If you are, perhaps you could open a brand new topic expounding on why we should no longer enforce rules on decent use of the language. I’d be more than happy to debate you on it. I’m no expert, but I’ve seen a great deal of improvement in your writing skills just in the past few months, and the fact that some semblance of grammatical quality is enforced here is testament to this.

The fact that many members are young and/or non-native speakers only serves to drive home my point. Those of us who learned English as our first language have a duty to uphold it’s grammatical integrity, and we do a great disservice to those still grasping at it’s concepts when we allow it to falter beyond recognition.

Edited by Misanthrope, 22 January 2008 - 06:03 PM.

[Saint_Michael]

Actually I read all the posts; I might have to clarify my original post. Don't get me wrong get anal on the obvious misuse of proper English post and all that stuff, what I was getting at was that someone might misinterpret, if unlikely, what you’re getting at with topic and the issue you are pointing. Also I base my post on being a past moderator on this forum and being well aware of what’s going on even when I am not here on the forums, scary as that maybe. Also stop using big words I just now had to Google polemic to figure out where you’re going with this; one heck of a scrabble word to use though , anyhow what I was getting on the misinterpretation of you topic people would unlikely begin trying to find obvious things and create a witch hunt on those people who don't do it on purpose. Of course that wasn't my intention with my first post as I was only stating that with this being a forum of teenagers and the very strict rules that come into becoming a mod someone would believe they are do good by nailing everyone that forgot to put an I before an E.

Of course I am glad I have that spell checker in Firefox as I type rather fast, or at least I lead myself to believe I type fast, I keep on typing and when I end that sentence I double check it and see if I missed anything. Trust me I wouldn't win a debate if I had the best debaters on my team . Yes members are supposed to reports posts they see as strange and that were lies the problem, especially with people who just join are busting out these posts most of us well know are copy and paste. Usually most people ignore them and go on their merry way; however, people like me who can spot the bogus post right away without trying won't be zooming on the individual words and how they look. I go after the content overall and see if it looks legit or not, now granted I can somewhat nail a grammatical error here in there if the posts are pretty long, but I can't judge everyone's writing skill based on assuming where they live, unless they mention where they are from then I would somewhat know how they would type.

I agree though that helping non-English speakers is useful but I seen a few posts here on the forums where people just degrade the way people post. I am not referring to anyone here on this topic, but I know most people come across those topics and the English is completely broken. Usually I try to read it out and fill in the gaps and then respond if possible; However, and don't take this the wrong way, but the last few years I hear a lot of people saying if you can't speak English get the hell of America, but if you place that kind of mentality in the forums as diverse as this people are going to be thinking some bad stuff. Again misinterpretation and in some way perspective as well could be use, but like I said yeah warn those who are obviously doing it on purpose or being excessive but still think about the way a person posts before making that judgment call.

I might have rambled a bit but I think you can see where I am somewhat going with this post .

EDIT well I decided to think about it some more and came up with this.

As members of this forum regardless of our status, it's everyone responsibility to help other members out. Topics like these not only make the staff do more work but make us look incompetent towards the rest of the members, and also telling them what everyone should be doing and not just the staff . As a member of this forum it is your role to help others out that you see struggling or having a hard time adjusting to the way the forum works. So what would be more beneficial then helping people out by writing tutorials such as the one tikiprincess wrote on writing essays, or providing resources to help those become stronger writers such as you. As a Moderator it is their job to make sure the forums are run properly and not be teaching people how to write, that responsibility goes to the teachers and parents and the proper education a person is supposed to receive. Although they don't read every topic and post on the forum its your role as the member to bring it to their attention so they can fix and maybe send a friendly message about some typo's they made. People make mistakes and given them warnings every time they want to add a couple of exclamation points or use words they feel most comfortable with don’t make them look uneducated.

I believe if you had someone correcting all your mistakes all the time you would get discourage and start second guessing yourself right? And so if we do that to the members they would feel the same discouragement every time the trap17 staff has to give them a warning every time they start tearing the English apart, and when it comes to the English language there is nothing descent about it. When they are referring to descent English the rules are referring to members making sure that their posts are understandable. They don’t need to be rouge scholars with a master’s degree in the English language, just as long as it is legible enough that everyone can understand what that person is talking about.

So instead of telling moderators what they need to do why don't you help the moderator's out and provide information on how to become a better at the English Language. As for the repeat offenders of this let the mod's know and they will take care of the situation as they see fit, and if the person deserves a warning they will get it, but when it comes down to how to write that is up to the person and if they want to write badly and not seek any advice on how to correct it then it is their problem and not ours. You don't have the right to criticize how moderators do their job if the forums were perfect then there would be no need for moderators. Heck I had my own style of moderating and most everyone was aware of it, I dropped the hammer when it came time use it and no one said anything especially when I went back to be just a normal member and having a good time.

So I put this challenge out to you let’s see some topics how to help the members improve their writing skills, either be tutorials or writing resources and not discourage them and make people look uneducated. Heck you don't even need a writing forum because we got the education forum and the tutorial forum as the best two places to post these things. It is easy to discourage someone because of the way they are, but it sure is amazing how hard it is for people not to help others out when they know that person could use it. Of course if people can get over themselves and ask for help now and then who knows we wouldn't be seeing ridiculous topics like this in a forum that provides useful info and not a place to bash other people.

It doesn’t need to be perfect, if every person had to write perfect English, I wouldn’t be taking English for the third time in college. GASP!! All you want about that dirty little secret of mine, I don’t care as quite a few people know that anyways. However, that’s the problem with forums and trying to communicate what a person feel, and so being a little excessive in some things is alright, and screw the Academic English world because unlike them not everyone are English gods or oh so smart. I may not be a genius, but every time I have to read stupid topics like this saying how people should be and all that crap makes me want to smack the person, because quite frankly I don’t care how you think I should be.
I will admit that the only reason why my writing skills have improve so I can make people like watermonkey and even you Misa to shut up about how bad my writing is and all that stuff. Trust me you don’t even know how much I held back when I had to deal with that crap last year, and WM knows they did a lot of trash talking, case being the post he just made in reference to that.

Hell right now I don’t even know if what I am saying is perfect English but AT LEAST YOU KNOW MY FEELINGS ABOUT IT!

So GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSES and thinking your all that because quite frankly you’re not, and screwing with kids minds is not being helpful and so it should be you two who should get the warnings and not the people who don’t have the perfect lives like you two do. So before you two get all “anal” and try to destroy my post with your big words and trying twist my words around, I want to see you two posts some topics on how people can improve, and if you can’t do that before replying to what I just said. Then you prove my point on people like you.

Edited by Saint_Michael, 19 January 2008 - 12:13 PM.

[cadastro]

For me, it's not the correct spelling nor vocabulary words that matter in a forum. It is the substance of the sentence that upholds the decency of English language. Who care about perfect English in a forum? The ones who use it as a venue for essay writing exercise and lingual students for higher grades in mass communication. A liitle message of concern to the one who started this topic: just live within the bounds of expressive limits. Afterall, the essence of a forum, as I believe, is for free expression. It should not be racist. Not unless Trap17 is really meant for grandstanding where people of excessive vocabulary words dominate.

Edited by cadastro, 20 January 2008 - 03:50 AM.

[truefusion]

Misanthrope said:

My suggestion is that Trap 17 staff make a stronger effort to enforce the rules and guidelines it already has in place to this effect

The staff can only do so much, as it is humanly impossible to view every single post. Non-staff members are fully capable of helping the staff enforce the rules around here, not to say that non-staff members should take matters into their own hands but to report any posts that appear to be violating the rules. New members appear every now and then, and we cannot monitor them all. We will surely enforce the rules when needed, but non-staff members can help point things out, too.

Misanthrope said:

... lady staff member’s biased opinion

All opinions are biased.

Misanthrope said:

I do hope this staff member is not suggesting staff disregard Trap 17 rules that clearly state a warning is to be given for not utilizing decent English.

Warnings, however, is not limited to an actual warning; verbal warnings are included also. I think she meant that a literal warning should not be given immediately, but, rather, a verbal warning the first time around.

[rvalkass]

Misanthrope, on Jan 19 2008, 02:30 AM, said:

Ironically, I find the most bothersome and repetitive butchering is made by native speakers who, out of laziness or ineptitude, find it quite amusing to deliberately misspell and botch up the language. I imagine this creates a frustrating environment for non-native speakers who are legitimately trying to learn the English tongue. And naturally, it just pisses off anyone who places value on coherent communication.

I firmly believe that very few members come to this forum with the intent of spelling words incorrectly. Indeed I feel their lexicographical style has been picked up from other forums around the Internet. Trap17 is special in that it demands a slightly higher level of quality than most websites and forums. When members are new to Trap17 they assume that it is just the same as everywhere else. It is often clear to see by looking at a member's posts over time that they change their style to match that of the other members. If a member consistently posts poor quality posts then they will most likely be referred to the rules and told to post with better quality, although this is up to the staff member.

Misanthrope, on Jan 19 2008, 02:30 AM, said:

I do hope this staff member is not suggesting staff disregard Trap 17 rules that clearly state a warning is to be given for not utilizing decent English.

I shall draw your gaze in the direction of the following text, located at the bottom of the rules:

Quote

Corrective Action: If you fail to follow these rules, you are at risk of receiving a punishment stated next to the rule.

At no point is it stated that the various punishments are set in stone. When I was a member, and during my time as a moderator, I have always taken that to mean that staff members are permitted a degree of discretion over what to do when a rule is broken. There are cases where it is obvious what should be done, but in many cases it is not clear-cut and moderators need to make tough decisions about what to do.

Misanthrope, on Jan 19 2008, 02:30 AM, said:

Members should not in any way feel “threatened” when staff simply enforce rules that are already in place, and in clear sight for all to see. Further, members have a right to expect a certain level of lingual quality on the forums.

You must, however, admit that it is not a particularly warm welcome to receive a warning from a staff member concerning your posts. Someone who has been here as long as yourself will be aware of the rules, but it takes time for a new member to learn the customs of the forum. I agree that a certain level of lingual quality should be maintained, and we endeavour to uphold this level of quality.

Misanthrope, on Jan 19 2008, 02:30 AM, said:

In a forum where words are the primary method of communication, it only makes sense to maintain decent grammatical standards, and one has to seriously question why anyone would take offense at enforcing said standards. And when we start making excuses for those who don’t even attempt a stab at decent English, we start down that slippery slope toward acceptance of the lowest common denominator. Somehow, I doubt that’s what anyone wants for the future of Trap 17.

The majority of forums on the Internet accept a much lower standard of spelling and grammar than Trap17. People take offense at being told what to do when all they are doing is exactly what they have done on every other forum. At a risk of repeating myself - Trap17 is different to most forums and it takes time for new members to adapt to the rules and customs of this particular forum, just like any other.

Saint_Michael, on Jan 19 2008, 03:24 AM, said:

[...] to give warnings to something like for not capitalizing the I when referring to yourself or have to many comma's in a sentence, or it being a run on sentence would be a tad anal. Yeah I agree a warning about excessive use of letters and exclamation points would be warranted, but somethihng like the misuse of words such as anyways which is an adverb, but Nonstandard in the academic world.

I quite agree. I feel that it is required to bring the standard of English used in the forums up to an "acceptable" standard, but to take all posts up to the standard of grammar and effort people put into a CV or graduate thesis, for example, would take far too long and be of very little benefit. If a post is readable and generally correct, I see no reason why it should be touched, or the member warned.

Saint_Michael, on Jan 19 2008, 03:24 AM, said:

Of course you could say you can blame the American's for ruining the English language, but me personally I think their are too many rules to the English language. Granted that some of those rules make sense but some are just annoying, but as to which I have to get back to you on that .

Ah, we only blame you Americans for dropping the letter U and getting the E and R the wrong way around

[OpaQue]

Reading the posts above, I sure have managed to improve my English a bit :-) English is not my primary language, so without a doubt, I m not the best here. We expect people to use decent english because it simply shows discipline and makes it easier to understand. I don't use BIG words because ... umm.. I seriously do not know Big words. But on a positive side, it helps other people like me to understand my language and its also acceptable among the preachers of the English language.

And I consider Trap17's standards by its ability to help members by introducing them to Web Hosting and Designing. Our standards get boosted by our politeness, tolerance, friendly behavior, kindness and gratitude towards each other which brings a smile & joy when replying to topics. Greatness can be expressed well by humbleness & wisdom rather than Big English words.

Coming back to the Topic, I agree with Misanthrope's opinion to a certain limit where I have seen members clearly abusing the language to show they are cool or too busy for the world etc. etc. Members like these can be easily distinguished because their attitude reflects in their text.

However, I have no issues with those genuine members who seriously have problems with English language and grammar. These are the members who need our help (who appreciate lessons rather than warnings).

- I just went through each line in this post for at least 3-4 times and Heaven Forbid, if there are any silly grammatical mistakes, Please email me for my English teacher's address -

[Watermonkey]

Wow! Get off your high horse? Are you suggesting we should lower our writing level to "See Spot Run" or something along those lines so that everyone will understand? Looking up the definition of a word every once in a while can't be a bad thing Mike. On the other hand, I don't see the benefit of you writing while you're getting yourself worked up. Turns into a mess. Hard to understand. Cool off. Stay on topic. Don't blame others on your problems... And stop attacking people who are simply here to help! When someone tells you to clean up your grammar, they're not saying they think you're a bad person, they're simply trying to help you become a better person through improving your communication skills.

You know, this thread was started in the "Suggestions" topic under "Support and Feedback". Now, if you don't want legitimate suggestions in this "suggestions" area, you're (most of those who've replied to this thread) doing a fine job of discouraging others from having the audacity to voice their suggestions on how to make this forum a better place! I'm especially talking to you, Velma! Your post contained snide catty language and immature demeanor that would suggest you've got better things to do than respond to "suggestions". I'd expect much more insight and forethought from a moderator. I've never seen so many people whine about this and that and make so many excuses and take things so personal just because of a "suggestion" before! You moderators who've joined with the whine: Did you bring some cheese to share with the class? You're all reading way too much into the posts Misanthrope and I have made on this topic while we've gone way out of our way to try and communicate to you all that we're not "Grammar Nazis" who want to ban each and every person ESL or not who makes a typo! Further, we're (or at least I'm) not here to teach people how to write and speak English. If that precedent was set, there would be millions of people from all around the world who'd flock here for free English lessons! I don't think this site is prepared to pay a staff to be on hand to teach ESL anytime soon.

Many people here care greatly that their writing is of a high technical level and those people take more time to construct an essay or any other post than others. It doesn't come easily, at least not for me, and it takes more time and effort to do for most of us. The more you practice, though, the easier and faster it comes until you really don't even give it much thought. The thing is, these people may look at all the sloppy lazy hard-to-read posts by others who have the capacity to post higher quality and wonder why they should bother being so anal with their own posts. See what I'm getting at? We occasionally get quite annoyed with people who are just as capable as we are but choose to write several grade levels below what they're capable of just because they don't care.

You want me to stop caring Mike? If I didn't care, according to your most recent post on this thread, you wouldn't be at the writing level you're at. If I let the fact that you're a "senior" and respected member here intimidate me, I wouldn't have given you so much crap about your writing skills, motivating you to bring it up a level or two. You're not out of the woods yet, my friend. Just because you've improved doesn't mean you don't have more improvement to go. And as far as "high horses" go, I'd look at the mirror before making that accusation. Indeed, a "thank you" for spending hours correcting and pouring through that essay you wrote last year might even be in order. Instead you just complained that I was too hard on you. WAAAAH! I have a news flash for you. When I was in grammar school, the teachers thought I was mentally challenged because I just didn't pick up on reading and writing as well as my contemporaries. So they actually sent me to a special school for "special" people for a year in third grade. It wasn't until the 11th grade that I was fortunate enough to have been taught by a teacher who was able to bring out the best in me. My writing and comprehension level jumped several grade levels well into college level that year and it's just improved since than. In community college I took other writing classes including poetry to broaden my horizons. I applaud and bow to those here who can speak several languages fluently and write decent English too. I would like to encourage people who speak English as a second language to include their home country so others who are struggling to understand what they're trying to say can be more forgiving.

Shree, in his post above this one, seems to "get it". And, I'd just like to add that's probably the cleanest post he's ever posted on the forum! So, in closing, I'd like to direct all the whiners and others to Shree's post because it's clear he's one of the few who actually understand the gist of what Misanthrope was trying to get at here. There should be a thread started in Moderator-land to bring all Mods onto the same page with regards to enforcement of this rule which is so very important to a site that generates revenue on Quality writings.

[edit]:
Oh, one more thing. This is directed at Mike, more than others, but it should apply to all Americans and anyone else who has the opportunity to watch Jeopardy on television: Rvlkass (sp?) used a big word, "lexicographical", in his post and if it weren't for the fact that it was used in a clue on Jeopardy just yesterday I wouldn't have known its meaning. My point is if people would turn off the titillation and turn on the educational programming on the "boob-tube", you'd be surprised how, in just a few short years, you'll begin to show signs of an upswing in intelligence instead of the opposite. Take care of your environment and you'll grow and prosper. Let your environment go to hell, and you'll sink into the muck of mediocrity having to look up every four syllable word you encounter in a thread. Mike, it's your choice how you take this. You can take the easy way out and take it as a personal attack. Or, you can correctly take it as me reaching my hand out to you making yet another effort to help you rise above the muck. Which way are you going to take it?

Edited by Watermonkey, 19 January 2008 - 08:01 PM.

[velma]

Wow,

Snide and Catty remarks??? Now wasn't that a tad bit rude?? I dissected my post but I still don't know why it is called Snide and rude...

Quote

Well....

The only problem with targeting every one with bad grammar is that you cannot always blame them for the bad language.

We have to keep in mind that not all the countries in the world are taught English as the first language .
These are a few reasons why a member might have "poor" English :-

1. Living in a place where English is not a priority. (In a place where the mother language or national language is spoken more than any other)

2. Due to bad teachers or their own faults, their English might be poor

3. Just plain old bad grammar.

4. Mobile Phones and their limits

Was I catty here?? I was merely telling that sometimes people have poor English because of the above reasons..

Quote

I don't think a member should be warned, threatened, treated like a dunce just because he does not have a good grasp over a language.

On the other hand, It is our responsibility to help members with poor English. I think being members in a "community" makes us responsible for each other's personal growth. By personal growth I mean Self esteem, disabilities, flaws and so on.

Again puzzled as to why I was called snide I was merely saying that members who have horrid English should not be treated like a star attraction of some negative sort.

Instead we should be helping them improve because you know that a forum like this can make or break some one, I know that you understand this very well. I am sorry if I was immature there...

Quote

I had even suggested to OpaQue that we open a sub forum where members can post useful topics on how to improve their English... But we could not as we needed members who would take out the time to open topics and help members.

We would also need a forum leader who would monitor that particular part of the forum... As we could not find anybody active enough for the job.. We decided to shelve the project.

This is the truth, I was planning to get a forum dedicated to only English lessons to help students and others... I had even planned to get a veggies corner, foreign language section started but it was not possible as I did not see any members that would do the job well...

Quote

But If you are interested in it Misanthrope, I will be extremely happy to get the forum started for you smile.gif You can email OpaQue further IF you want to volunteer for this.. It is not a compulsion what so ever

I think this is what made you say that I was catty and snide Sorry for the misunderstanding but I was being serious here..

I have always appreciated Mianthrope's and your knowledge in the English language and wanted her to talk to me regarding this. I had even contacted you regarding this matter but you never responded back.. So I thought you did not have the time for this.

I had wanted Misanthrope and TikiPrincess to take care of the English Forum but Tiki is not active enough

If you still do not believe me, you are free to ask OpaQue whether I am lying or not, I am sure that he will not lie about a silly thing like a forum..

I know that there are people who misspell on purpose or open topics worth laughing or ignoring but It is difficult to warn them or edit their posts all the time..

I never knew that our opinions are whining.. I thought everyone was free to post their opinions. Anyway you can either call my "suggestion" an opinion or a whining.. Doesn't matter because I am not going to reply anymore

**Peace and let us all calm down our raging egos**

[Saint_Michael]

As for the high horse I am referring to the superiority complex you seem to keep on developing when it comes to arguments like this, and when it comes to grammar thats when it begins to show the most and you start boasting and make snide remarks regardless if you you know it or not. Thats is all I am referring and nothing more, and as for thanking you that was pretty much difficult to do when you start cracking jokes about it the moment you saw my work, and as for this topic it stop being a suggestion once the attacks began. The only point I made was that instead just going after the big offenders that to make things simple the moderators would be going after anyone, and that would be the thought process for those who don't have a good grasp of the English language.

I never said anything about not caring and being hard, my complaint with you is the way you did it. Also don't be throwing words into my mouth about forum status because I don't need to boast that because I have no need to or would it get me anywhere. As for jeopardy thing I do watch it and I do fairly well, heck I get lucky sometimes with some of those questions, but the way my mind works I only need to know enough to get me by. Really though who uses words like lexicographical on a daily basis, luckily for me lexicon is it short form of lexicography, but of course thats why it blows my mind when I tune into that spelling bee competition on ESPN and seeing words that normal 12 year olds wouldn't be using on. Anyways I am getting a bit side track, point being we can go back and forth, make long fruitless posts, and so I am end my thoughts on this. The moderators know what they are doing if they didn't then this forum would be like it was 3 years ago and be in chaos with spammers and people cheating the credit system, and like I mentioned before its up to the everyone just not the staff to help make sure the forums are running smoothly.

[truefusion]

Watermonkey, on Jan 19 2008, 02:44 PM, said:

And stop attacking people who are simply here to help! When someone tells you to clean up your grammar, they're not saying they think you're a bad person, they're simply trying to help you become a better person through improving your communication skills.

Anyone can tell someone what to do, but that doesn't mean you're helping them. Sure, telling the ones that cut words up intentionally to spell words out entirely is all that is required, but for the ones that are still in the learning process—they need more than just a command. It's like a person with no money asking you for food, and you telling them, "Go eat," without giving them something to eat. You might argue that we are not obligated to feed these people, but if you want something to be done about it, then action is required from those who want a change.

Watermonkey, on Jan 19 2008, 02:44 PM, said:

You know, this thread was started in the "Suggestions" topic under "Support and Feedback". Now, if you don't want legitimate suggestions in this "suggestions" area, you're (most of those who've replied to this thread) doing a fine job of discouraging others from having the audacity to voice their suggestions on how to make this forum a better place!

The part that everyone has a problem with is how to go about in enforcing the rule. So far, the only suggestion has been more reporting—do you have any? How about Misanthrope? I have not seen any suggestions on how to go about in enforcing the rule from you two. But what further brings this discussion down hill is the implication brought by the suggestion "enforce the rule:" To enforce means to give out actual warnings. What keeps this implication alive, though, is the implication given by the emphasis placed on the word "warning" in post #6 of this topic.

Watermonkey, on Jan 19 2008, 02:44 PM, said:

[1]I've never seen so many people whine about this and that and make so many excuses and take things so personal just because of a "suggestion" before! [...] [2]You're all reading way too much into the posts Misanthrope and I have made on this topic while we've gone way out of our way to try and communicate to you all that we're not "Grammar Nazis" who want to ban each and every person ESL or not who makes a typo! [3]Further, we're (or at least I'm) not here to teach people how to write and speak English.

[1]Calm down, that would include you also.
[2]Read my second paragraph in this post.
[3]Read my first paragraph in this post.

Watermonkey, on Jan 19 2008, 02:44 PM, said:

We occasionally get quite annoyed with people who are just as capable as we are but choose to write several grade levels below what they're capable of just because they don't care.

And we thank you for reporting these posts in the past. We just hope you continue doing so where we are ignorant and are unable to attend the post and or user.

[hr=noshade] [/hr]
Now, any suggestions in how to enforce the rule better other than more reports?

[Misanthrope]

For those who are still confused, my suggestion is not about targeting non-native speakers, anal-retentive grammar enforcement, enforcing all rules all the time, or any other in a long list of ill-reached conclusions put forward by certain members. The tired, boorish excuses on why certain staff won’t enforce a simple policy that already exists have been echoed before, ad nauseum. Yes, yes, I’m fully aware of the huge member to staff disparity, the “reporting” function, staff’s discretionary use of policy and obvious time constraints. And yet, staff has in the past made time to arbitrarily enforce rules that aren’t even publicly viewable, yet apparently exist "somewhere." I can certainly expound on this relevant topic if anyone’s interested, but I doubt those so eager to throw stones in this thread would respond so eagerly to the proposed topic. Speaking of throwing stones, I wonder if the easily offended also took issue with a poster’s use of the large, specialized word, “lexicographical.” I previously had no knowledge of the term, but I applaud rvalkass for introducing me to something new, thus expanding my limited knowledge base. For the staff that decided to turn a legitimate suggestion into an infantile debate, I can only express my disappointment. Here's a news flash: requesting enforcement of an existing rule that is clearly being overlooked does, in fact, constitute a legitimate suggestion! But maybe we should abandon the suggestion forum altogether, as this is not the first time I’ve witnessed cowardly, defensive response to suggestions.

I am neither offended nor intimidated when someone else demonstrates his or her intelligence through words, or any other medium for that matter. Why in the heck would I be? Many of you express yourselves better through design or music than languages. That’s great! Wouldn’t it appear ridiculous if I got “offended” or threatened that you design a better web page than I do? I personally consider myself a better musician than writer (which isn’t saying much), but as it happens, the medium of choice on the Internet forum is the written word – this is how people socialize here. I wouldn’t show up to band rehearsal not knowing how to speak the language of music. How absurd! And no one ever insinuated that people flock here with the intention of abusing the language, but to my mind, purposely mutilating the primary vehicle of communication demonstrates a certain degree of socio-pathic behavior. Furthermore, I’d hate to see any member intimidated into dumbing-down his discourse for fear of personal attacks from fragile egos. Regarding bias, I doubt anyone would refute the value of leaving it out of the moderating deliberation process.

Quote

I agree with Misanthrope's opinion to a certain limit where I have seen members clearly abusing the language to show they are cool or too busy for the world etc. etc. Members like these can be easily distinguished because their attitude reflects in their text.

Then Opaque and I are in agreement. The problem is, some seem hesitant to follow up on these infractions for worn-out reasons they’ve already stated. By enforcing the English usage policy they are also forced to adhere to better grammatical standards themselves, which may also fuel the hesitation. Velma’s proposal of adding a new board to instruct non-native speakers in English skills is an excellent one; unfortunately, it does not address the problem I put on the table – that is, native speakers who intentionally abuse the language. To that end, I humbly propose the following:

This suggestion, if adopted, would spread responsibility for maintaining the board’s lingual integrity among more members. If this thread is any indicator, some moderators appear overwhelmed by their current tasks, and this proposal would help spread the workload. We currently have non-moderator “spam patrol” that present a visible deterrent to spammers. I suggest a “Grammar Patrol” who would function much in the same way as spam patrol, but would employ members with above average English skills. Call it “English Patrol,” or whatever you like, the effect would be the same. Admin could start a thread soliciting volunteers, and before long you’d have a large pool of worthy candidates.

Velma, I don’t recall you ever approaching me on the subject of manning a board, and I’m still not sure how waiting until after the project is shelved demonstrates a legitimate solicitation. Regardless, please email or PM me the details of your vision at your earliest convenience.

I’d like to leave you all with this thought before I abandon the thread: Earlier, Watermonkey quoted the Second Amendment of the Constitution, which was written in 1787. If a select few had not taken it upon themselves to uphold language standards for the masses, none of us would have the ability to read this great document some 200 years later.

[cadastro]

truefusion, on Jan 20 2008, 04:55 AM, said:

Anyone can tell someone what to do, but that doesn't mean you're helping them. Sure, telling the ones that cut words up intentionally to spell words out entirely is all that is required, but for the ones that are still in the learning process—they need more than just a command. It's like a person with no money asking you for food, and you telling them, "Go eat," without giving them something to eat. You might argue that we are not obligated to feed these people, but if you want something to be done about it, then action is required from those who want a change.[/size]

Two thumbs up for this statement of truefusion. Well expounded. At the very outset, I really don't care reading and interacting with posts that are grammatically wrong. Neither react to misspelled words that I come across. Again, as I said earlier, I am more of the substance than learning the new vocabulary word presented. Nevertheless, I feel benefitted from someone of, perhaps, higher intellect posting next level expressions that are new to my comprehension.

To the people of much concern of English language decency, if you really want to help people (me included) with twisted english-tounge, my suggestion:

- What if you adopt "footnotes" in your posts specifically intended for your unusual vocabulary words? Thus, helping the poor non-english reader understand immediately what you want to convey. And learn the way the word is being used in a sentence.

Well, that is only a suggestion coming from an Ilokano tribe.

If you do that, I think you deserve a thousand credit points for every post

Edited by cadastro, 20 January 2008 - 07:12 AM.

[truefusion]

Misanthrope, on Jan 20 2008, 01:45 AM, said:

Here's a news flash: requesting enforcement of an existing rule that is clearly being overlooked does, in fact, constitute a legitimate suggestion!

Those who make a suggestion—it is their job to help others implement a working and effective solution into making a suggestion a reality, or else why even make a suggestion? Your suggestion is really just a piece of the whole picture; a strategy with no tactics. Your suggestion implies that the staff here in Trap17 are not fully accomplishing their duties as staff. Many users do not normally come here planning to learn the rules or even care to first look at the rules upon signing up, these users are mostly here for the hosting—but you see, when they apply for their hosting, that's when the rules become more apparent. But not all users apply for hosting—this is one of the drawbacks.

The Introduction Forum: this is one way members, including staff, help enforce the rules. But not all members introduce themselves. Shoutbox: yet another way in helping implement the rules—and not just the members helping others, there are shortcuts found in the red area above the shouts. Hosting applications: yet another way to enforce the rules, because in order for their application to be accepted, their posts must show that they have followed the rules. And i'll tell you one thing, users with small posts are usually the ones that write the way you are not fond of—and in this case, they're basically spamming the forums. Reports: yet another way to help enforce the rules.

If any of these methods you find unsatisfactory, then so be it. But until you finish up your suggestion (include the tactics, as i have stated above), we will continue using these methods in the best way we know how and can. There are drawbacks to each method i've stated, but each can back the other up. You may continue calling us cowards and whatever else you please, but slander gets people no where.

Now, i shall ask again (but slightly different): Do you have any methods, other than the ones i've mentioned, to better enforce the rules? You could continue avoiding this question, but that's not going to satisfy your suggestion.

[Liam_CF]

I've got to agree with you there, a lot of the posts on this forum are used with 'txt speak' and it is very difficult to read sometimes.

Good that this has been made.

[Misanthrope]

Quote

Your suggestion implies that the staff here in Trap17 are not fully accomplishing their duties as staff.

By now, I would think you would know better than to attempt putting words in my mouth. From my vantage, it’s simply unprofessional behavior for a mod to blatantly engage in and promote as standard response in the suggestion forum. As I recall, this sentiment has been previously echoed by other staff trying to put an end to senseless bantering, one of whom suggested such dialogue actually belongs in the debate forum. As time goes on, I tend to agree with him. Let it be known that I never once said, shouted, or even whispered within the contents of this thread that all staff are not accomplishing their duties, but I can only assume so much responsibility for how you choose to interpret my suggestion. Now, if someone were to come out and say that Trap 17 staff are not inhumanly perfect, they would only be voicing a truism that afflicts all people, and certainly all corporate entities. I see nothing wrong with admitting our human frailities, and the mature individual does not recoil in horror when these short-comings are pointed out. Regardless, you appear to be taking my suggestion quite personally, which I believe limits your ability to fully process a valid suggestion that your own superior, Opaque, had no problem understanding – and happened to be in agreement with. There is absolutely no reason to take personal offense when another member merely points out an area that desperately needs improvement and uses a proper vehicle to do so. Reacting from a place of insecurity only intimates other members from also making suggestions that could make Trap 17 a better place than it already is, which I assume is the reason the suggestion forum was put here in the first place. Further, I see no place on the board that places restrictions on how, specifcially, suggestions are to be made. What I have seen are words to the effect all comments are welcome. I make a point of suggesting areas of improvement to other companies as well, who gladly welcome customer feedback. Why? Because they appreciate how valuable ANY form of valid feedback from the end-user is in helping them provide a better product in a highly competitive environment. The final responsibilty of implementing the suggestion, of course, lies with the entity who actually solicits the feedback. They don't retort with statements that discourage further feedback, or criticize the fashion in which the suggestion was presented.

By the way, the most recent post I reported for language butchering was not a one liner, but a fair size post from an established user who was trying to appear "cool" at the expense of readability.

Quote

Your suggestion is really just a piece of the whole picture; a strategy with no tactics.

Had you bothered to read all my posts, you would not be making this erroneous statement. As I recall, this is not the first time I’ve had this sort of interaction with you (for which you later apologized). Kindly refer to my last post. If you still feel the need to attack minor points and tear apart my suggestion, feel free to take it up with me in the debate forum or send me some hate mail. Or, you could spend your valuable time actually following my suggestion and get out there in the trenches and fight lingual abuse. And yes, TF, I will continue to use words like “cowardly” whenever I witness a staff member attempting to bully another member into submission for no good reason. You chose to ignore SM's blatant flame throwing and refusal to stay on topic (spam). As a mod, I feel you should have excorsised some objectivity and intervened at that point, but instead you added fuel to fire by engaging in petty t*t for tat tacticts. And my crime? Having the audacity to make a suggestion in the suggestion forum, of all places! How dare I!

Edited by Misanthrope, 20 January 2008 - 09:21 PM.

[dcshaw.en]

It's hard to do really go forward in this direction, really...

I know, myself, I generally type with proper grammar pretty much naturally. It takes more effort for me to make the effort to leave out capitols, apostrophes, commas, periods, etc. than it does for me to just type them in.

The problem with people who just genuinely don't have enough skills or knowledge for the English language to construct a proper post, is that, I personally at least, feel like a jerk if I sit there and correct every grammatical mistake they make, even if I'm doing it to try to help them in the future and not just trying to be a *BLEEP*.

I also realize that warning them for lacking linguistic skills in English is unfair, because it can hardly be considered their fault if English is not their first language, they were never properly taught English, or for some reason are incapable of grasping grammar well.

However, I do believe that it's painfully obvious when a person isn't even trying.
An entire post written with 'u', 'r', 'i', 'b', '2', and others is an example of this.
And even if, let's say hypothetically, that a person is learning English as a second language and their main source of information is from reading it on the internet, and text-speak is what they are accustomed to seeing, I do think there is a limit on what is acceptable. As much as I hate to blame a person for something that isn't their fault, or they aren't doing intentionally (Because I do believe it's frivolous to hold someone responsible for something they weren't aware they were doing wrong or had no way to prevent), I think that there's a certain line that people shouldn't let themselves cross.

If you're learning English, you're best off learning to use it properly, for a variety of reasons.
I'm no expert at people who have other native languages, but I'm sure it's easy for them to tell when they are typing something that is heavy text-speak.
No reasonable person (I apologize for generalization) would logically think that 'u', 'r', 'i', 'b' and '2' could all be the proper words for their respective counterparts; especially '2'.

I know a lot of times, my grammar isn't perfect. But at the same time, I don't really expect it to be.
I've adapted to my own style of typing grammar, that relies heavily on aesthetics and punctuation.
The spacing and punctuation of my posts are heavily reflective on how I would speak the words naturally, it's mostly line breaks, commas, and semi-colons.
There are times I also tend to use an unhealthy amount of ellipsis's.

PS-Edit (I'm still trying to get used to the censorships on this board, it seems.)

Edited by dcshaw.en, 20 January 2008 - 07:59 PM.

[truefusion]

Misanthrope, on Jan 20 2008, 01:36 PM, said:

By now, I would think you would know better than to attempt putting words in my mouth. [...] Let it be known that I never once said, shouted, or even whispered within the contents of this thread that all staff are not accomplishing their duties, but I can only assume so much responsibility for how you choose to interpret my suggestion.

I don't believe you're taking every word i mentioned into consideration. I mentioned that your suggestion implies that. Whether or not it was your intent is another story. Yes, you did not mention it explicitly, but you also did not do away with any false implications (false in the sense that it was not your intention) in your previous posts.

Misanthrope, on Jan 20 2008, 01:36 PM, said:

Regardless, you appear to be taking my suggestion quite personally, which I believe limits your ability to fully process a valid suggestion that your own superior, Opaque, had no problem understanding – and happened to be in agreement with. [1]There is absolutely no reason to take personal offense when another member merely points out an area that desperately needs improvement and uses a proper vehicle to do so. Reacting from a place of insecurity only intimates other members from also making suggestions that could make Trap 17 a better place than it already is, which I assume is the reason the suggestion forum was put here in the first place.

Believe me, i am not taking your suggestion personally—it has nothing to do with me in the sense of bad grammar and spelling. And i did not react from a place of insecurity. I am merely trying to make your suggestion be what it is supposed to be. You say enforce the rules, we do—it is not only our job as moderators but a command from admin also. You say enforce one rule more than the other—we will and do, when we find the user violating just that one rule, otherwise, why emphasize one rule more than the other as to imply that the other rules are to be followed to a lesser degree? You say that the rules are being overlooked, as i mentioned before, people don't normally come here to look at the rules and we can't monitor every single user. It is common for people to overlook rules. It may be common sense to first look at the rules before joining a hosting forum, but many believe that a lot of forums just basically follow the same rules—this is just one of the many reasons why rules are overlooked. As it is, it is not what is currently established that gives the impression that things are being overlooked, it is the effort by others that gives that impression.

[1]My point exactly. But by taking the time to slander, you are in fact showing that you are reacting from a place of insecurity. And i am just suggesting that you take the time to help us form better ways than what is already established. Your slander, however, will in no way discourage me into arguing my point—as you been so far seeing. It may work on others, but i can put forth my suggestion all day long.

Misanthrope, on Jan 20 2008, 01:36 PM, said:

Further, I see no place on the board that places restrictions on how, specifcially, suggestions are to be made. What I have seen are words to the effect all comments are welcome. I make a point of suggesting areas of improvement to other companies as well, who gladly welcome customer feedback. Why? Because they appreciate how valuable ANY form of valid feedback from the end-user is in helping them provide a better product in a highly competitive environment. [1]The final responsibilty of implementing the suggestion, of course, lies with the entity who actually solicits the feedback. [2]They don't retort with statements that discourage further feedback, or criticize the fashion in which the suggestion was presented.

And do you tell them how to improve? You're still avoiding my over-all question. You gave us your reasons why you want one rule emphasized more than the other, but you have still yet to explain how to go about it other than how we are already doing. To continue in this fashion is to continue to allow us to do things the way we always have. If then, why even start this topic? If this is the kind of question you claim to be discouraging, then tell me how it is not justified for its own sake. Though there may be no regulations as to how to go about in making a suggestion, you can't just make a suggestion that basically tells us to continue doing what is already established for us to do. If merely asking for other forms of tactics is discouraging, then i am not to blame for giving discouragement. It is your own choice on whether or not to take any form of emotion towards a matter. And my statements are said in an attempt to gain further feedback. Can it not be seen that way at all? If it can be seen that way even by an inch, then it is improper to say that they discourage further feedback.

[1]Not entirely in this case.
[2]Like you mention previously (emphasis by me), "valid feedback." Your suggestion is invalid in the sense that it is incomplete.

Misanthrope, on Jan 20 2008, 01:36 PM, said:

By the way, the most recent post I reported for language butchering was not a one liner, but a fair size post from an established user who was trying to appear "cool" at the expense of readability.

Again, you are not taking all of my words into consideration. I shall place emphasis, again, on what i have previously mentioned: users with small posts are usually the ones that write the way you are not fond of. And although some people take the time to butcher words to just fit in with the crowd, i would not go around believing that such is always the case, as people may do it out of laziness or whatever other reason they give themselves.

Misanthrope, on Jan 20 2008, 01:36 PM, said:

Had you bothered to read all my posts, you would not be making this erroneous statement. As I recall, this is not the first time I’ve had this sort of interaction with you (for which you later apologized). Kindly refer to my last post.

Had you bothered to take the majority of my post into consideration, we would already be discussing new ways on how to better enforce the rules other than the ways that are already established. I may have been wrong in the other topic that is irrelevant to this one, but i see not how i am wrong here. If you will be so kind as to refer to my last post, we can start figuring out ways to better enforce the rules than what is already established. Merely saying kindly enforce the rules, especially one above the other gets us no where. Why? Because, as i have mentioned and will continue to mention—we are, and with the ways currently established.

Misanthrope, on Jan 20 2008, 01:36 PM, said:

[1]If you still feel the need to attack minor points and tear apart my suggestion, feel free to take it up with me in the debate forum or send me some hate mail. [2]Or, you could spend your valuable time actually following my suggestion and get out there in the trenches and fight lingual abuse. [3]And yes, TF, I will continue to use words like “cowardly” whenever I witness a staff member attempting to bully another member into submission for no good reason. [4]You chose to ignore SM's blatant flame throwing and refusal to stay on topic (spam). [5]As a mod, I feel you should have excorsised some objectivity and intervened at that point, but instead you added fuel to fire by engaging in petty t*t for tat tacticts. And my crime? Having the audacity to make a suggestion in the suggestion forum, of all places! How dare I!

[1]Tell me how i am not in any way justified in my statements? And i am trying to make your suggestion what it's supposed to be; it is not a tear down, but an attempt to improve, even if you see it as a tear down.
[2]Sure, when we come up with ways other than what is already implemented, for obviously you do not believe that these current ways work, or else why start this topic? If you do not believe that the rules aren't effective, now's your chance to say so (even though you had other chances).
[3]How do my statements bear no good reason for being mentioned? Now's your chance to justify yourself in your slander—if it is at all possible to justify slander.
[4]First of all, a lot of us in this topic can be blamed for spamming. Secondly, to respond in a topic to spam is spam. Thirdly, you too are guilty of flaming. And last but not least, addressing someone is not limited to topics and posts.
[5]If you mark me guilty of adding fuel to fire, then it would be unjust of me to take the action that you feel i should have taken. And if i were to do such, there would be more than one person i would be speaking against in such a manner. But what is my crime? Merely suggesting—yes, suggesting—that you help come up with ways other than what is already established, for you are the topic starter. You are therefore obligated to improve the current system—and to do so requires a how. I would not say this is a crime, as it is perfectly fair. But, for some reason, you continue avoiding it.

[hr=noshade] [/hr]
I may sound like a monotonous gong, but, so far, it can't be helped.