11 replies to this topic

[Joshua]

Alright, I've wondered about this for a while now. The Bible specifically states that people who obey their parents are promised long life:

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Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Now, I'd really like to see a scientific study done. They do studies all the time to see what allows people to live longer. They recently learned that several factors resulting from living moderately, abstaining from alcohol and cigarettes were 2 I remember, can add many years on to a person's life.

Now, if people obey their parents they'll often avoid such behaviors, so that could be an indirect cause.

Anyway, I've just always wanted to ask a bunch of really old people if they obeyed their parents when they were young.

Edited by Joshua, 16 February 2008 - 10:42 AM.

[adriantc]

I think you are totally right. Not that who wrote the Bible (I am an atheist) thought about alcohol and cigarettes, but it is a known fact that a child's mind is very weak and fragile and can easily be seduced but wrong things and wrong people. So a stronger mind is needed to keep the weak one on the right track. Indirectly that means a healthier lifestyle and a longer lifespan. And day by day that is more true since there are more and more things that do us harm.
And I strongly believe that in most cases (not all) parents influence is needed. The main thing parents have is not money, but the experience of life and that is far more precious then everything. Parents know what they did wrong in life and a responsible parent should take care that his children won't do the same mistake(s) all over again. And unlike all other people in the entire world they only want what is good for you. (with a few exceptions where parents are themselves neglected children).
Bottom line is that parents are good and it's not the genes that carry on the species but the collective experience. We can archive some kind of immortality by living in a small part in our children. As I see it, it is a parents responsibility to grow their children into a better version of themselves. We must turn our children in what we haven't (couldn't) been (be). If everyone would take that for granted the world would be a far better place to live in.
One last thing I must say... usually if a child has problems from a young age the parents are to blame. If he does anything wrong, it is also the failure of the parents!

PS: I have been accustomed to authority from when I was really young and I have grown to like it very much. Some like freedom, but I am the guy that always was home early, never drunk, never smoked (except narghile on very special occasions... don't know if that is the English word... the thing the Arabs smoke). My father is accustomed to authority by the nature of his job and his father before him so it might be something genetic. I really don't need more freedom... I will grow my children in the exact same fashion, since I consider that, with my good and bad, I have turned out well. I have when I see young people like me smoking and even worse drinking a lot or simply acting uncivilized. Above all I hate people that want to attract attention doing wrong things on the street, in the subway, anywhere...

Edited by adriantc, 16 February 2008 - 07:14 PM.

[master_bacarra]

Okay... Just because scientists do a lot of experiments, it doesn't necessarily mean they're trying to do this to prove the bible right or otherwise. Just because you're a scientist, doesn't make you an atheist of some sort. They couldn't basically use these statements as a ground for something to "lengthen" someone's life. The bible is subject to an individual's interpretation. Your interpretation of the bible might not be the same as mine.

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but it is a known fact that a child's mind is very weak and fragile and can easily be seduced but wrong things and wrong people. So a stronger mind is needed to keep the weak one on the right track.

That's not always the case. Just because it's a kid and has less experience as compared to adults, that doesn't mean they're weak in state. True they could learn a lot from their parents, but what they learn usually depends on the parents/elders themselves. you can't just go on assuming that every parent is a good parent (of course, there's no such thing as a perfect parent) and that these parents have strong experience in life that could help mold their own kids.

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Indirectly that means a healthier lifestyle and a longer lifespan.

Again, it depends on the parents whom they're getting their experience from. That wouldn't make any sense if the parent is someone who's "not on the right track". It is true that kids don't know the right from the wrong, so you can't really assume that the parent they're getting their experience from is someone who does indeed know the difference between the right from wrong. And when these kids are "enforced" these habits, whether it is right or it is wrong, to them it is just RIGHT because their parents said so or because they see it from their parents and they would probably think it's right.

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The main thing parents have is not money, but the experience of life and that is far more precious then everything. Parents know what they did wrong in life and a responsible parent should take care that his children won't do the same mistake(s) all over again.

This is similar to how I interpret the bible's quotes. What the parents learn thru the course of their life they can share with their kids and with that wisdom of their parents, these kids would be wiser themselves.

[truefusion]

master_bacarra, on Feb 16 2008, 03:03 PM, said:

Just because scientists do a lot of experiments, it doesn't necessarily mean they're trying to do this to prove the bible right or otherwise. Just because you're a scientist, doesn't make you an atheist of some sort. They couldn't basically use these statements as a ground for something to "lengthen" someone's life.

He did not imply nor say any of those things. And they can use it as a ground for such a thing—a study will always be a study.

master_bacarra, on Feb 16 2008, 03:03 PM, said:

This is similar to how I interpret the bible's quotes. What the parents learn through the course of their life they can share with their kids and with that wisdom of their parents, these kids would be wiser themselves.

Of course, that's to assume that the parent(s) taught themselves the right thing. When you think about the commands or teachings given to you, you can determine the reason(s) why they were given to you, on whether those things are useful, beneficial or just plain non-sense. The way i interpret the verse that this topic is based on is like this: Listen to your parents when they are correct. Back then, a lot of people did foolish things which literally cost them their lives. But foolish behavior, no matter what era you're in, can still cost you your life. And, just like the laws in the Bible, the laws established today in many countries are set to provide common sense; however, some people need to learn the hard way, but this hard way can literally cost you your life.

[adriantc]

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Just because you're a scientist, doesn't make you an atheist of some sort.

I can't agree with you on that. A true scientist needs hard proof until he believes something so I think science is incompatible with religion which is based on faith rather then proof. The key concept behind science is "proof". If there is none there is no science involved. Just like with aliens. A true scientist will never believe until you bring him a green alien to analyze. Many say science is compatible with religion, but the truth is they study different things... one study material stuff other spiritual stuff; one requires evidence other demands faith. Pretty different... But that is another discussion.

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This is similar to how I interpret the bible's quotes. What the parents learn through the course of their life they can share with their kids and with that wisdom of their parents, these kids would be wiser themselves.

Of course, that's to assume that the parent(s) taught themselves the right thing. When you think about the commands or teachings given to you, you can determine the reason(s) why they were given to you, on whether those things are useful, beneficial or just plain non-sense. The way i interpret the verse that this topic is based on is like this: Listen to your parents when they are correct. Back then, a lot of people did foolish things which literally cost them their lives. But foolish behavior, no matter what era you're in, can still cost you your life. And, just like the laws in the Bible, the laws established today in many countries are set to provide common sense; however, some people need to learn the hard way, but this hard way can literally cost you your life.

All of humanities knowledge comes from trial and error. There is no other way to discover things. In other words you must do something wrong, learn from it and do it better next time. And yes it also depends on what kind of parents somebody has...

Edited by adriantc, 17 February 2008 - 02:15 PM.

[truefusion]

adriantc, on Feb 17 2008, 09:14 AM, said:

Many say science is compatible with religion, but the truth is they study different things...

Depends on the religion you're comparing it with. Many religions try to explain how life works, this is what Science does. However, some of the explanations in these religions are said to be direct revelations, but some are said to be known through observation.

adriantc, on Feb 17 2008, 09:14 AM, said:

All of humanities knowledge comes from trial and error.

Indeed, but when it deals with life, the one that learns may not be the one that was acting but the observers. However, "trial and error" implies that the person knew beforehand what they were getting themselves into. Of course, all of that knowledge is an a posteriori, or at least it's supposed to be.

adriantc, on Feb 17 2008, 09:14 AM, said:

...and do it better next time

Or if you've really learned your lesson—don't do it ever again.

[adriantc]

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Indeed, but when it deals with life, the one that learns may not be the one that was acting but the observers. However, "trial and error" implies that the person knew beforehand what they were getting themselves into. Of course, all of that knowledge is an a posteriori, or at least it's supposed to be.

Sometimes being an observer isn't enough. It is a known fact that even when you see something you are still inclined to do it until you feel it on your own skin. Like when the parents say... "Don't play with fire! You will get burned!" ... the child still does it and when he eventually gets burned he learns the lesson and next time he won't do it. Guess that is the curiosity in the human spirit... We has to do it and see what happens!

[Forbez]

Joshua, on Feb 16 2008, 10:40 AM, said:

Alright, I've wondered about this for a while now. The Bible specifically states that people who obey their parents are promised long life:
Now, I'd really like to see a scientific study done. They do studies all the time to see what allows people to live longer. They recently learned that several factors resulting from living moderately, abstaining from alcohol and cigarettes were 2 I remember, can add many years on to a person's life.

Now, if people obey their parents they'll often avoid such behaviors, so that could be an indirect cause.

Anyway, I've just always wanted to ask a bunch of really old people if they obeyed their parents when they were young.

This is intresting, very intresting indeed. If we gave it another 70 odd year, to allow this generation of 12-16 to get older. We could see the difference alot more easier. Most teens these days neglect and ignore their parents ideas, orders and views. Parents are less displinced on their children as they remember just how tough their parents were.

Many cultures respect their elders, China is most famously known for that. Chinese people leave longer then most European people do. Consider that China is a third of the worlds population, i'm not looking at the average but the top end of the chart.

I believe God is right, listen to your parents and you'll leave longer. Alot longer then if you didn't.

[Joshua]

Alright, I have some things I want to comment on here

To Master Bacarra: I think anything can be misinterpreted, including the Constitution or a Dictionary. If we're not honest and objective, and don't confront our personal biases, we're bound to misinterpret.

To AdrianTC: I think faith is like science in that it comes after personal conviction, thought, and study on the subject. People may end up making decisions apart from reasoning after already having faith, but originally are going to have to face their doubts and suspicions before they can ever have faith! We make those decisions apart from reasoning with faith for the same reason you'd have confidence in a professor who's been consistently shown right about what he speaks. Faith in a person or a belief is a matter of confidence being built in them, and that comes about from honest examination, not from self-delusion. In my opinion anyway. I don't think a delusional faith is faith at all. If a faith can't overcome a person's natural doubts and questions then it isn't much of a faith to begin with.

[baphometslayer]

Parents should be allowed to give their children some good old punishing. Unfortunately, if you even lay a hand on your kid you'll get called on by some snoopy neighbor who needs to mind their own damn business.

Then the CPS comes in and takes you're kid away and throws you in jail because you were trying to raise your kid.

What a damn country....