12 replies to this topic

[Echo_of_thunder]

Okay here is the deal.
I was watching TV and they had said that Peta was upset over the KY Derby and that they thought that horse racing is crule.
Myself, I do not watch it much. but would like to know what everyone here in Trap17 thinks.

Is it crule or not?

[Mich]

In my opinion horse racing itself is not cruel. It is the uncaring owners and trainers that race horses starting at such a young age that is the problem. For those of you who are not racing fans, at this year's Kentucky Derby, the second place horse (a filly named Eight Belles) broke down on the track just after crossing the finish line. She fractured both of her front ankles and was euthanized on the spot.

Horses that are raced before their bones are fully developed and their joints have closed, break down from the stress of racing all too frequently. The sport has allowed for the racing of horses during their second year. In most cases, this is before they have developed strong enough legs to hold up under the pounding on the track.

I try to watch the Breeder's Cup program every year and it becomes a tragedy before the day is over. Young horses break down throughout the day and I find myself shouting at the TV when this happens. "Why do you fools insist on racing such young horses?" Of course then I am watching through tears. The owners are in it for the money and most of them view the horses as a commodity rather than a living, breathing animal. This just sickens me.

I am not a PETA supporter, but maybe they can do something to change the conditions under which these animals are expected to race. The Kentucky Derby has always been a race for 3-year-olds. The long-standing tradition (since 1875) will probably never be changed. But since a young horse must qualify for the derby they are raced as 2-year-olds to establish this qualification. There-in lies the cruelty. Horses that young should not be raced.

Quote

"The entire Churchill Downs Incorporated family -- as well as the horse racing industry -- has been devastated by Eight Belles’ tragic accident following her courageous performance in Kentucky Derby 134. With all of the advancements made by our industry to improve the overall health and welfare of Thoroughbred racehorses, losing a competitor like Eight Belles will never be easy or acceptable. While injuries like the kind Eight Belles experienced are extremely rare -- even one is too many -- and public reaction is understandable given the fact that her accident was seen by millions of people following world's most famous and most watched horse race. We extend our deepest sympathy to Eight Belle's owners, trainer and jockey for their loss, and we join the entire horse racing industry in looking for ways to prevent catastrophic injuries in the racehorses that are the very heart of our sport.

-- Bob Evans, President and CEO, Churchill Downs Incorporated

I find this statement by Bob Evans a flowery cover-up made in order to ignore the real issue at hand. I point to the fact that the 2006 Kentucky Derby winner (a colt named Barbaro) was also euthanized because of injury suffered when he broke down during the second leg of the Triple Crown, the Preakness Stakes. Story.

Edited by Mich, 17 May 2008 - 03:43 AM.

[Misanthrope]

This business of literally running horses into the ground and well past their physical limits is to be condemned by all who profess humanitarian ethics and common decency. If someone out there can explain how watching an animal pumped up on drugs and stitched together by veterinarians run around a track with a demonic midget on it's back constitutes entertainment, I'd love to hear. As I see it, the horrible realm of horse racing is not unlike the antiquated Barman and Bailey's Circus freak show which profits by the torture of the kingly lion, regal elephant, and other beautiful beasts of the wild.

I'll never forget a scene I witnessed as a child. We were still naive to the ways of animal exploitation, and our mother took us to the circus for an afternoon's entertainment. Sitting outside on the hot concrete in a lonely cage barely large enough to contain him, sat a large male lion with a full, golden mane (think Narnia's Aslan). This kingly creature, once the king of all he surveyed in the African bush was now enclosed in a cage barely large enough to contain him, dragged from freak show to freak show in miserable, intolerable conditions. His worn body showed the scars of several beatings, no doubt whip marks inflicted by his sadistic "handlers' as they forced him to perform acts unnatural to his proud disposition.

Children possess senses that adults have lost, and I could sense this lion's misery and felt the worse for him as my guilt for attending this freak show overwhelmed me. Never again did we visit a circus other than to protest its' vile presence. Now, this particular circus is banned from the fair city I grew up in, thanks to hard work and protest from humanitarian citizens and groups like PETA. Their tactics may reek of Hollywood, but I do support PETA and others like them who have done so much to help the innocents among us. And no, I do not support the spectacle of horse racing in any of its' dubious presentations anymore than I support greased pig contests or dog fights.

The wicked miscreants who profit from the exploitation of horses should not be surprised when humane organizations like PETA expose their cruelty for all the world to see. These magnificent animals are abused for human entertainment, not unlike the human gladiators of old. A day will come when the masses will recognize the correlation. I envision a day when horse racing, like it's cruel predecessors, will at last be smitten and removed from all progressive societies and left behind in the dark ages where it belongs, nothing more than an embarrassing reminder of our barbaric history. Until then, PETA and their humane ilk will continue to trail blaze a better future for those who cannot speak for themselves.

[sheepdog]

PETA hates ANY interaction between people and animals. They will condem anything related to such activities. They do not think that we need animals in any way shape fashion or form. This is not only limited to the use of animals for food, fiber or entertainment, but compainion animals as well. PETA does not want you to even own a pet! They are extremests in the worst possible concept of extreme and sometimes violent action. They value the life of an animal more so than the life of a human. They have gone so far as to claim Christianity as the biggest threat to animal rights. (God granted man dominion over the animals)

As far as horse racing, it is what the animals are bred for. Accidents happen. They also happen to human atheletes. Training for vigourous atheletic competition is a strain on the body, be it horse or man. I suppose we could all say being athletic is bad for our health and stop all exercise and become a world of fat greasy lumps that sit at computers all day and complain about the world and all those people in it that disagree with us.

[Watermonkey]

PETA is a wacky, extremist organization for sure, and you'll not catch me writing them a check, ever. But, on the other hand, they do some good, too. You might consider that not everything they do is ridiculous or insane as you've portrayed them. I, for one, agree that a wild cat in a circus in this day and age is beyond reason. This is what they did in the Roman Games way back when. Centuries ago. Have we no ability to progress past such inhumane acts? I fully support the bearded lady, midgets on ice, and other human freak shows, but then these people, like athletes, are making a conscience decision to publicly humiliate themselves or to train to the point of injury and permanent disability. I don't imagine the animals have those choices presented to them. God didn't give Mankind domain over the animals to be cruel masters, but to exhibit care, compassion, and kindness toward them. We should all be considerate and aware that when an animal screams, that means the same thing as when you or I scream. No animal should have to suffer pain for our gratification.

[Echo_of_thunder]

seems as most are agree here. but as said by by Mitch, It is the owners. They breed these horses to run like anything. I live in New Jersey. In this state we have breeders who have had there horses run in the triple crown. If your driving in southern NJ you can see these horse in the field not only grazing but in a full run. So very beautiful to see I might add. But if you look closely you will notice there legs, vs there bodies. Like a tooth pick. Myself I feel if they the breaders and owners are going to have these horses running in a race for millions of dollors. They should also think. Is it worth having your milti million dollor horse get hurt and maybe being put down? I think not. Now I sound as a Peta supporter. one word NOT! But I do belive in rights for these animals. They are not able to say to anyone this hurts or it is unfair to us.

Just remember this next time you watch horses running in a race.

[sheepdog]

Well, maybe I missed it, though I do watch pretty close. I can't think of a single thing that PETA has done that is good for animals. I do know of human lives that have been destroyed because of PETA, and I know of quite a few incedents were PETA has deliberatly caused animals to suffer just so they could make a point, or get a story, or make their own propaganda films. Their own shelter destroy over 90% of the amimals they take in. They don't even try to find homes, they just kill them. Drop off the bodies in a dumpster on the way back to their headquarters, after promising the people they got them from they would find them a good home.

We talk about the woman who cyber bullied the teenage girl who ended up commiting sucide,and how she should be punished for her "crime," but are you aware that PETA does very much the same thing? Anyone involved with animals can be a target for PETA and their harrassment campaign. I personally know one woman who I am quite sure her untimely death was due to the severe harrasment she recieved from PETA. Of course, you can't prove that sort of thing, but I am as sure as I am sitting here typing this that it is what caused her ultimate death.

[Misanthrope]

When an organization gets as large as PETA, it's difficult not to find something, if not several things to criticize. That's simply the nature of the beast, as it were. But the very fact we are all sitting here discussing the plight of abused horses is a testament to their effectiveness in bringing animal awareness to the public eye, if nothing else. Would we be doing so were it not for the efforts of PETA? They may utilize outrageous tactics, but are they any more outrageous than the industries who profit from the pain and agony of millions upon millions of innocent animals each and every year?

With their large marketing budget and Hollywood backing, PETA is successfully able to bring to the fore issues that are often otherwise swept under the carpet and conveniently ignored by the masses. Those who are inherently predisposed toward humane treatment of animals have been aware of these issues for some time, but the general public doesn't realize anything until they see it on the evening news. Your average Joe is not going to go out of his way to research the horrors of horse racing, and most animal welfare groups - as well meaning as they are - do not have the budget to advertise on major media. That's where PETA fills the gap. They are controversial because they challenge preconceived, archaic ideas of man's relationship to other sentient beings we share the planet with. And they are hated because they target huge, industrial agri-businesses that have long profited from the exploitation of innocent creatures. Exploiters will always resist being exposed, and will turn the tables on the messenger to deflect attention from where it belongs. The evils of the horse racing industry need to be made a part of the collective consciousness to affect change, and I thank PETA for helping bring this change about.

[sheepdog]

Quote

But the very fact we are all sitting here discussing the plight of abused horses is a testament to their effectiveness in bringing animal awareness to the public eye, if nothing else.

And there in lies the problem.
Who defines abuse?
Is making a horse run abuse?
Is chopping off a chickens head so you can have him for dinner abuse?
Is keeping your dog chained in the back yard or in a crate abuse?

It all depends on who is defineing cruelity. Granted, we know the general public may not be the brightest, but I believe that they can at least comprehend that if you are going to have fried chicken for dinner, the bird is going to have to be killed and dressed. What is PETA's purpose in comparing the holocost to the slaughter of chickens? And really, why should the general public even care about chicken slaughter and how it is acomplished? Is there a nice way to die? Do you suppose the lion concerns himself with the pain the zebra feels as he tears out his throat? And do you really think that McDonalds chickens die a less painfull death than Kentucky Fried chickens? Wonder why PETA thinks so? Talk about big business and Exploiters, just what exactly do you think PETA is? They too have caused pain and suffering to animals to prove their own agenda, what makes them any better than agri-businesses?

I do believe that most people are inherently predisposed toward humane treatment of animals. But here again, we must define abuse. The pet owner who leaves his dog tied up in the back yard or in a crate during the day when they are gone to work, and then comes home and plays with his dog and interacts with it and feeds it and takes it to the vet will not be convinced that he is abusing his dog because he confines it for it's own safty when he cannot be present to watch over it. However, PETA will asure us that this is horrible abuse to confine this animal and not allow it to run free and live out it's life as nature intended it to. You know, like wolves who freeze and starve in the harsh winters are so much happier than our couch potato puppies sleeping by the fire place with their bellies full of kibble.

PETA, much like the mainstream media, is inclined to make issues out of non issues to further their own agenda. And pad their own pockets. Every time they can whip the general population into a frenzy over some supposed abuse, the revenue rolls in. Talk about a cash cow, lol! Half truths and wild exagerations presented to your average Joe who is not going to go out of his way to research the truth behind the story, just simply get out the old check book and send in that donation.

[Watermonkey]

I have no idea how animal-rights advocates or groups like PETA define "abuse", but I bet my definition comes pretty close. It's got to do with suffering. How would you like to be kept on a chain while your master is gone to work for the day? Think it's alright to be in a dog-crate for a while? Get in and find out. My bet is they look at how the animal lives in the wild. Yeah, there are wild dogs and wild turkeys (close enough for government work to chickens), there are wild cow-like animals such as buffalo. These animals need to be as close to their wild existence as can reasonably be expected within a domestic situation. For instance: A dog (and cats to a lessor extent) is a pack animal. As long as there's an Alpha male to keep them in line, the dogs are "happy" or at least they feel they belong. When you leave them on a leash, even a dog run, they're vulnerable to real wild dogs (and malicious humans) attacking them, and they're genuinely lonely for company, and they'll bark and irritate your neighbors all day long. Seems cruel to me, and if it's not cruel to you, that concerns me.

Let's look at the practice of slaughter. Is there a humane way to kill an animal? Yep. There is also an inhumane way to do it. Same as if you were going to be killed. Would you like to have your neck slowly sawed off, or would you rather fall to the quick, painless guillotine? The point is, if you don't want to feel pain because it would be inhumane, how is it any different for the animal? Why should it be? I think you think an animal is incapable of feeling pain, or you just don't care. Either way, that's just sad and someone, in my opinion, who is as indifferent as that toward another mammal or other living thing is a cold, cold, callous, frightening individual.

Did you know that mass murderers started, nearly every last one of them, with the horrendous abuse of dogs and cats? There are some real gems working in the slaughter industry, too. I've seen the same sort in American Uniform in Iraq /Afghanistan. Today they're giggling like little girls when they throw a dog off a cliff, tomorrow they'll do it to an innocent Iraqi child, and in a month they'll be patrolling the streets of America as law enforcement officers, looking for the next old lady to test out their tazers on. What goes around, comes around, we reap what we sow. All because there aren't reasonable restrictions on the amount of abuse you can dish out to your dogs. This society in America is barbaric and it's not getting better. (I know there are much worse societies or cultures, if you will, but I live in the U.S.A., so it's all I'm going to comment on for now because it's the place where I can make some impact.) Why would anyone argue over something like this? Could it be you run an illegal puppy mill that's been investigated for animal abuse? Just curious...

You've cited the incident where some PETA employees rescued some animals from a lab, then threw them in the trash dumpster on the way home (if memory serves) twice now as a reason to stain the entire organization's reputation. Granted, it didn't do them any good PR, but that's the extreme exception, not the rule by any means. You keep going on about PETA and how they define abuse as a chained up dog, and you're using the intellectually dishonest reasoning this can't be so is because the entire organization likes to rescue puppies and throw them in the trash. Forget about PETA for a second. Think about the animal's welfare. Let's go back to the confined dog for a minute. I'm sure you're aware that there is a special device known as a FENCE that any responsible dog owner needs to have when they've got a dog or three. When you adopt a dog from the humane society they'll often actually come out to where you live to check that there's a proper fence in good order to ensure you don't intend to tie the animal up and to make sure you're who you say you are and you're not going to use the animal to fight other dogs. (As an anecdote, true story: A neighbor of mine ties their dog, "Tupper", up whenever they leave and it barks non-stop the entire time. About six months ago, the dog was attacked while it was outside tied up (they were home, but it was still tied up outside, go figure) by a marauding pack of dogs belonging to another neighbor who's apparently running an illegal mill as well. I passed by there a couple months ago and counted no less than 23 dogs that all looked to be from the same genetic lineage. Tupper recovered from his wounds which cost in the thousands of dollars and the owners didn't learn their lesson -they still leave it tied up when they're gone and never built a fence for it to be confined to when it's out.) The point is it's irresponsible and creates a psychotic animal (often this technique is used to make a mean dog to fight in backyard dog fighting games.) that barks at nothing all the time which completely goes against its natural instinct. Now contrast that to a simple fence which allows your dogs to have room to run and play, and an added benefit is they're able to protect your property from human invaders! See how easy that was? Now you're not being cruel, and your neighbors aren't complaining about the incessant barking day and night (also illegal in the more civilized places). It's really just common sense here. Like killing a head of bovine. Is it really necessary for the animal to be alive throughout the first minutes of the slaughter so that it's being stripped of its skin when it's still screaming? I think not. It's just wrong. It's a reason I won't eat factory farmed meat.

Edited by Watermonkey, 22 May 2008 - 06:45 AM.

[disneyreporter]

Well, where I work with therapeutic riding horses, I find horse racing extremely cruel. It's awful for human beings to get enjoyment from animals when the animals are in pain, suffering, and used for things other than their original intent. How can you watch a horse race and not cry when a horse collapses and has to be euthenized? It's horrible. Think of how the horse could have been put to much better use had it not been killed in a horse race. It makes a mockery of these beautiful creatures. Do me a favor and never bet on horse races. Rich snobby men do it because they have nothing better to do with their money. They do not care about the well being of the horses, nor do they even care about the sport in general. All they care about is making more money and "having a good time." Horses should not be pushed to the extent that they're foaming at the mouth and getting hurt to the point of being put to sleep. If horses had laws against cruel and unusual punishment, well this would surely be it. These races wear these horses out, and then after they're done racing, they have major medical issues in their older days, if they even live to be that age. Is horse racing any better than dog racing. No! Both are cruel, and neither should exist. If you find horse racing or any type of animal racing fun and enjoyable, that's pretty sick. Go and get another hobby!

[Diffusr]

Like someone's already said, racing itself is not cruel. The horses actually enjoy running flat out in a herd. They are bred to run. However, the treatment of racehorses by some ruthless trainers and owners is what needs to be looked at. I believe on the whole the horses are well looked after, they need to be in order to win races and make money.
If you beat and starve a racehorse he'll slow down on the course.

[joeblogg]

i find horse racing very boring and i never watch it. but i think it isn't cruel. the horses probably enjoy getting out there and racing. its more interesting than staying on a farm doing nothing right?

they like getting active and racing.

the only way we can find out if it is cruel is if we ask them and we can't do that so we are going to have to use our own judgement.