18 replies to this topic

[xenador]

rvalkass, on Dec 9 2008, 08:15 AM, said:

It contains other theories like the uncertainty principle, Schrodinger's equation, the Pauli exclusion principle and quantum entanglement.

so I just got done with a college intro corse to chem so I will attempt to explain this, granted I dont have extensive knowledge on any of it.

uncertainty principle in short says you can not know something about a system without interfering with the system itself...due to effects of attraction repulsion you have on the system. Great example of this electrons, we know how many there are due to atom smashers but we can never know where they are because of how fast they move and the fact that by looking at the atom we would be manipulating the "operations" of the system.

Schrodinger's equation- states that S(entropy of a system) = k(shrodinger's constant...or the gas constant diveded by avogadro's constant R/N)log W(number of microstates possible, generally extremely large numbers, and generally extremely hard to calculate...save exceptions), another easier way of restating this is .... ΔS = nCp(or Cv)ln(T2/ T1) that is....the change in entropy is equal to the number of moles times the Constant pressure or volume times the natural log of the first temperature over the second. This is used in the lab setting a lot more.

Pauli exclusion principle- we only discussed this in terms of electrons. Basically no two electrons of an atom are alike...there are 4 different break downs on how to classify an electron.

quantum entanglement- we brushed over this one quite quickly, basically at some point you fail to be able to describe one system without mention of its counterpart because how they are entangled together.

hopefully that helps out a bit.

[onkarnath2001]

Ruben, on Dec 7 2008, 11:35 AM, said:

Ok, a bit confusing seeing that is contradicting common sense. For example, the famous saying: "If a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?" Well, according to common sense, and logic we think: yes, of course it does; but Quantum Theory says no. Quantum Theory says that something does not exist, if it is not being looked at, but because the human body has thousands of atoms, we could never loose our body. Wait! That doesn't even make sense. Really, scientifically that does make sense. But going back to if something is not looked at, it doesn't exist, well... How is that possible. They even have a theory on that on how the world was created. It doesn't make too much sense to me, so can anyone explain better?

but i want to ask that if a tree falls down there the potential energy is changed into sound,,if the sound doesn't come out then where the potential energy will go.as i know,"energy can neither be created nor be destroyed"then how can one believe on the classical physics.as quantum mechanics is applied in case of very small entities,,,but can it be applied in case of a bigger tree?????plz do reply

[Watermonkey]

I think that's the point of the exercise, though people should probably refrain from using common references to illustrate how it works. For example, the tree falling thing really can't relate to the discussion at hand because it's viewed and heard (or not) on a macro scale, our scale. Because the tree falls in our universe, it must obey the rules therein including the consequence of releasing mechanical energy upon impact with a solid surface, and weather or not a pair of ears is nearby to record this event is not relevant to it happening. Quantum theory really doesn't have anything useful to say about this theoretical scenario because its universe is mostly sub-atomic. The two must be separated, though perhaps at some point someone will finally come up with the string theory to explain it all and tie it all together in a nice simple package.... Not holding my breath.

[shadowx]

I am somewhat aware of the theory of observation, however i understand it to mean that an atom, or subatomic particle is in ALL states and ALL places until observed. An electron for example is widely taught to be orbiting the nucleus of an atom much like the moon around the earth, but in fact it does not orbit it at all. It simply pops in and out of existence. Its like hydrogen, with one electron. If you looked at it you would see many electrons, all around it, flashing into and out of existence, all the time. That one electron can be in more than one place at one time, and no places. It is completely separate from time itself, so it seems.

This all goes back to Schroedinger's cat (wikipedia it).

Whether or not this is true is a different matter. It's a well established theory, and much of quantum physics/mechanics makes no sense to most of us, but at the moment it is just a theory. It does have evidence from the double slit experiment (very interesting, wiki that if you like to be amazed and confused... 1 photon splitting into 2? and yet if you watch it to try to see it splitting it doesnt split...WTF?!).

RE the tree in the forest riddle, it depends how you define sound.... If you define sound as something you hear then indeed, there is no sound for no-one is there to be able to hear it. However, if you define sound as a vibration then yes, it does make a sound for the energy is turned into vibration in the earth and air. In the same way a deaf person touching the ground would feel the "sound". But like watermonkey said, that's largely irrelevant when we are talking on the quantum scale.

This is a scale where two subatomic particles can be entangled, and held miles, or lightyears apart and yet still communicate with each other (spin one particle left-right and the other will automatically change its spin to up-down, no matter of distance of obstacles between them...)

[anwiii]

i think shadowx has explained it the best in layman's terms.

i for one though don't believe in the theories. i mean, how would one define measurment in human terms or terms of science.

an object isn't an "object" until it is measured. this may be true in the physical sense and any human trying to discover the unknown, but an object will always be an object once it's converted with the energy that converts it as it's instantly measured by the energy that converts it.... even when it's still unknown to any human ability to try to define the unknown.

someone mentioned about many universes created when the more likely is the many planes of existance. science and theories will never be able to explain those existances fully which means the theories discredit it's own self in some sense.

all quantum theory proves is that we have a long way to go before we know the answers

so maybe shakespeare said it best...."to be, or not to be..."....that's really the question here....and understanding exactly what that means.....

a tree falling in the woods where nobody is around to hear the sound. sound is directly related to communication and understanding what the sound means. not with human ears specifically, but with the energy that surounds it. so the real question should be....what was the tree trying to communicate before it fell....not after it fell. something that human ears will still fail in comprehending the true answer.

all quatum physics or theory is.....is when you look at something, that something changes it's existence or molecular structure. but it goes beyond that of sight and sound of human abilities.

there are many theories behind "quantum physics". the simple explaination in what is is is that "objects" no matter how small, are ever changing with no pure definition.

this is the same science that will disprove god and god's existance as god and the enrgy that surounds god is ever changing. even though i am not religious, i will use god as an example. and the fact that most people believe that god is all knowing, how can he be when quantum physics will prove god is ever changing with every single piece of energy behind everybody's thought(energy) about god and his/hers existance. so in fact behind quantum theory, there will be no definition of god or "thing" since everyone is always changing with no stop to the "truth" as there are many truths to quantum theories. this will always negate the fact that there is only one truth that cannot be changed.

so what is quantum theory? you might as well try to make up a theory of your own. it will go well with all the other theories of life's existance as we know it. why? because as of right now, nobody knows and any theory is a possibility and no different from the rest. that is quantum theory at it's finest. an idea to try and explain the existance of all matter.

sorry, i really am not an expert at these theories.....i just typed random thoughts on this subject. when it boils down to it, i don't know ***....let's move on.....

[shadowx]

What is very interesting is that quantum theory actually lends itself to suggesting immortality... If nothing exists or happens unless it is being observed or measured then how can one die? For if science is to be believed then after death is nothing, we no longer exist and so can no longer see, hear, feel or measure. And if we cant experience, observe or measure our own death then quantum theory says it cannot happen and does not exist.

If we then tie this in with multiple universe (multiverse) theory we actually have a scientific theory for the afterlife, hear me out... I know you dont believe me but read on and then comment...

If we cant observe our death then we cant die, but people die all the time, we've all seen it or heard of it, but lets assume that there are multiple universes, one thought experiment (essentially a theory that has been thought about eg me thinking about what happens if i put acid on my leg) goes like so:

There is a gun, loaded with one bullet, and a device for measuring the direction a single particle spins, this particle spins randomly with no influences on it except the universe, or multiverse. A man sites in front of the gun and pulls the trigger, if the particle is spinning left-right then the gun will fire, hitting him in the head. If it isnt spinning in this direction the gun will not fire. He pulls the trigger and at the instant he pulls it the multiverse splits into two (stay with me here, no-one notices the splitting of the multiverse) in one universe he is dead, the particle was spinning left-right and the gun killed him. In the second universe the gun didnt fire, the particle was spinning some other way so he survived. Now, because he cant possibly observe his own death he MUST be placed into the universe in which he survives. So his consciousness ONLY lives on in the living universe, since he is now dead in all other verses (there are only 2 at the moment, and in one he died) then he can only be in this "living" verse.

He pulls the trigger, the universe splits again, in one he lives, the other he dies. Again he can only exist in a verse in which he is alive so he MUST go to that one. From his point of view his is immortal. he can pull that gun infinity times, until the universe ends and he will ALWAYS survive.

We of course, watching him could easily see him die, because we can still exist in a universe in which *he* is dead, so long as we are alive in it then we can survive in it.

Now, if we extend this theory into the "it doesnt happen unless you observe it" theory we see that when we are about to die the universe splits, in one we die, but in the other we CANT die, we just cant because how can we observe that? so we live on. Perhaps this is a parallel universe, Eg it is exactly the same so we dont realize we are "dead" (and if you listen to many spiritualist mediums many spirits remark on how similar it is in their universe) or it could be a totally different universe, perhaps like heaven, hell, the afterlife, who knows....

The gun experiment can be given over to car accidents, how many times have you nearly been run over? What if each time that happened the universe split, in one your friends watched you die... in the other you escaped, you can only exist in the living verse so you would never know.

There is of course a third option... the gun fires, hits him in the head but doesnt kill him, it simply paralyses him, in this example the universe doenst *have* to split, it may do, i dont know, but because he lives there is no need to create a new universe for him to survive in.

The problem is this is all a a bit silly in some ways... I mean, say i am sitting in a room and someone puts a big red ball in the other room. Quantum theory says that the ball doesnt exist unless i can see and measure it, by camera, motion detector, my dog, anything. but the room is locked with no windows or sensors, i cant possibly measure its existence. Does that mean it isnt there? No, of course not. The ball is there whether i know about it or not. It is simply my knowledge that is missing. Not the ball.

But then we have shown that observing the spin of a particle (photon i think) changes the way it spins, so if it is spinning up-down and i look at it, it automatically switches to left-right. Perhaps this is due to the way the spin is measured. For example a ball is running away from me, but i want to measure how big it is so i put my foot on it to stop it and measure it. Now obviously i have changed the behaviour of the ball by stopping its motion... But i dont know how they measure the spin so this might not apply.

I also think science can explain god, or other godly beings. I am not a mainstream religion follower, but this is my theory of a godly energy.

think of RAW energy, energy with no form, its not hot, bright, fast moving or anything. In video games this is often shown as a beam of heat that just burns enemies to a crisp, but thats heat energy. Raw energy is undetectable (unless the theory of Boson particles proves correct, in which case energy is carried by tiny, tiny particles so we can measure its mass or density, but lets say it isnt...) so this energy without form doesnt glow red hot, thats heat energy, it doesnt shine in the dark, thats light energy, we cant hear it (sound/kenetic) we cant feel it, because its energy. But what if that *is* "god"...


*the "k" means this is witchcraft style magic, and not slight of hand or other tricks using mirrors etc.. done by performing magicians.
Lets go in western European magic(k) specifically Witchcraft and Wiccan/Paganism. Wicca teaches that magickal energy can be controlled by thought and intent, it goes a little deeper than this but to keep it simple we will say that if i will (eg really want) something to happen, and i use a meditation to use my brain to "think" and control the energy of the universe i can make things happen, let's say i can influence the guy next door to stop playing loud music (immoral, and not Wiccan at all, but a good example). So i meditate and it is proven that the brain's energy changes form and goes into a lower state of energy, Theta waves i think, or possibly deeper. So basically imagine the brain is a radio signal, while you are awake it is at 150ghz or something, but while you meditate it goes down to 100Mhz (ghz is 1000 mhz, so this is over 1000 times lower/slower/less energy) and if your radio could only pick up Mhz waves, which i think is true, then while the "radio" signal is at 150Ghz, your radio hears nothing. But when the signal goes down into the Mhz range your radio picks up the signal.

What if the "radio" was raw energy...? What if, by tuning your brain waves down or up to a certain level you can interact with the raw energy? Now, what if this raw energy acted like a signal booster? What if it took your "please dont play load music Trevor" (Trevor is the guy next door in the example) amplified it and then reflected it, your emotions would tie the thought to Trevor, think about someone you know, and feel that emotion, if that emotion was transmitted it provides a sort of key to who should receive the message, subconsciously Trevor's brain picks up a signal, a really low signal that Trevor is unaware of... what if the brain can understand that message, even a tiny bit? The power of the brain is immense, even if you are unaware of something your brain can still receive the message and change your behaviour (subliminal messages).

There are holes in this theory... However, it is proven that the brain waves extend out of the brain/body and that brain waves can manipulate things and be understood by computers/machines.

Now, just because science doesnt understand something, or doesnt know it exists doesnt make it not real. 500 years ago science had no idea that radio waves existed. In fact if i were talking to them right now they would tell me that radio waves are god, or magical energy. Today we know that isnt true. But what if, in 500 years time someone discovers raw energy, all around us, everywhere (for we wouldnt feel it of course) and then what if they find out that brain waves can affect it. Does that make magic not real? No, it makes it understood by science. It can then become a tool.

I'm not saying this is 100% true, i do however believe that the universe/multiverse is full of "magickal" energy that can be affected by humans and animals, and even the universe itself.

Quantum theory suggests that this is all possibly. Entanglement theory also suggests things like telepathy are possible. Entanglement is what happens when you pass two particles close to each other, if you then change something on one (eg spin direction) the other will immediately change to be the opposite, no matter of distance. Perhaps this is because the universe cant become out of balance or it would be destroyed (if every particle was positively charged nothing would stick together). But if your brain has 500,000 of these particles and someone elses has 500,000 then you thinking could theoretically affect these particles, and the other person's brain would notice that 500,000 particles have switch polarity or something and hence a message is transferred... Think about it and Wiki it.

I know my post is long, but its interesting. Thanks for the time!

[deadmad7]

I still don't get what anyone is trying to explain with reading allthe posts by everyone and especially by rvalkass , but I still only get the general terms of the equation. BuT the one about the quantom velocity equation?

[linekill]

Great posts and thoughts on Quantum Theory. Specially shadowx's.

What I understand of Quantum Theory is that it says that every particle in the universe is quantized. And it marked the end of Causality, there are no cause and effect. Observation varies depending on the observer. And of course, the uncertainty principle's "You can't predict or Know everything."

I hope to see a thread about String Theory and M-Theory. Now, that's something recent..

[Gammmae105]

I truly believe in the quantum theory. What else can explain the electron's double ability to act as a particle and a wave? Also the fact that Albert Einstein pursued it aggressively and found out that all energy is quantized and electrons shoot "beams" that act as "waves" and that explains their wave-like property. I just learned this from physics class a few weeks ago, so some of my points on it may be wrong, but the quantum theory is a very solid one.