31 replies to this topic

[Baniboy]

Well this is for all you guys who belive in evolution. Religious people can post too! But try to think evolution is real while doing your post and keep ythe point of view right .

I watched this movie "idiocrazy yestarday and I've just been thinking of this.

Now that it's not the fastest, smartest or the strongest who get laid and have children, how will human wisdom, muscles and reactionspeed develop?
When the "right genes" don't have the chanse of forwarding themselves to another generation (I don't mean they don't, I mean a that if a boxer mates with a "boxress" then that "hydrid" mates with another hydrid for thousands of generations it will most likely become a superhuman with super reaction speed and good upper-body muscles. I mean it doesn't happen often enough). When the decision of mating is not made by natural selection.

Well my complain is that smart people aren't obviously popular anymore I wonder if this is going to be moved into the vent section

[truefusion]

Assuming the theory of evolution is true: Look at medical science journals. I don't think it can be said that evolution was ever beneficial, at least from today's observational point of view. You can't pass muscles through genes, unless perhaps the child had a gym inside their mother which it made use of. But that would severely tax the mother of her energy and nutrients more than what the child normally does. Also, intelligence is metaphysical: you can't pass it on through your genes. But imagine if you could pass intelligence through your genes: parenting would be a whole lot easier. xD

With that said, i don't think it can be concluded that natural selection isn't making the decision. According to Darwin, natural selection makes two choices: (1) burdening the organism with something that doesn't benefit the organism, and (2) giving the organism something that will allow it to live till the "next stage." Also, the choices of humans does not mean the choices of natural selection.

Can i stop assuming the theory of evolution is true now?

[Baniboy]

truefusion, on Feb 10 2009, 06:13 PM, said:

Assuming the theory of evolution is true: Look at medical science journals. I don't think it can be said that evolution was ever beneficial, at least from today's observational point of view. You can't pass muscles through genes, unless perhaps the child had a gym inside their mother which it made use of. But that would severely tax the mother of her energy and nutrients more than what the child normally does. Also, intelligence is metaphysical: you can't pass it on through your genes. But imagine if you could pass intelligence through your genes: parenting would be a whole lot easier. xD

With that said, i don't think it can be concluded that natural selection isn't making the decision. According to Darwin, natural selection makes two choices: (1) burdening the organism with something that doesn't benefit the organism, and (2) giving the organism something that will allow it to live till the "next stage." Also, the choices of humans does not mean the choices of natural selection.

Can i stop assuming the theory of evolution is true now?

I didn't mean that muscles pass from generation to generation by genes, I meant the production testosterone, that has been proven to pass through generations.
I don't mean that if your father was a boxer you will be too.

And the idea of "intelligence is not passed on by genes" should be forgot, it is fighting against the whole evolution theory, after all, if it was to be true, we would be as stupid as any one-celled organism. When a certain gene in the human has been combined with another DNA that has that same gene, it has the potential to become a combined one ( no you are not as smart as mother and father combined together, don't even bother to ask ).
Same thing with cancer, it doesn't usually just pop out if the mother AND the father don't have that same gene.

And you can stop assuming now, what i really meant was to keep the right point of view, you don't have to assume anything.

Edited by baniboy, 10 February 2009 - 06:10 PM.

[Digitalidad]

I think natural selection still and will always play a role in evolution. If a baby is born weak or with birth defects it will probably die without mating. Even laws support that insane people can't get married, for example.

Also, it's not that easy for anyone to get a couple nowadays. Females are always selective and they have that kind of hardwired. There's indeed science in their choices. They still choose males because they're physically gifted, for example, altough the main reason for them to pick yo up is something deeper. It has to do with you being or not an Alpha male or behaving or not like one. That's deep and needs a post itself!

[sheepdog]

Evolution and genetics are 2 different things. Genetics is the sience of how combinations of different dna effect the offspring. Evolution is the science of how different species became what they are now, and how they changed or adapted or even stayed the same after centuries of mating. Genetic mutations play a part in evolution, it was probably a genetic mutation that caused polar bears to become white when they originated from brown/grizzly bears.

Quote

intelligence is metaphysical

Ok, I'm not sure where you are coming from on that. Intelligence, just like everything else, is genetic. Stupid parents have stupid children or at any rate, the odds for stupid children are much higher when their parents are stupid. Granted, babies are not going to be using their mothers wombs for a gymnasium, but babies from strong, athletic parents are going to be far more likely to have the genetic predisposition to be strong and healthy. It's all genetic.

I am concerned about the evolution of the human race in its current state. People who could not breed naturally are now producing children threw artificial means. People who are "mentally challenged" are allowed to breed an reproduce, people with illnesses/disease/defects of all sorts are reproducing the next generation of humans. I'm not really sure at all how this will effect the species in the long run. I can't see it being a good thing, that's for sure.

[Baniboy]

sheepdog, on Feb 11 2009, 02:43 AM, said:

Ok, I'm not sure where you are coming from on that. Intelligence, just like everything else, is genetic. Stupid parents have stupid children or at any rate, the odds for stupid children are much higher when their parents are stupid. Granted, babies are not going to be using their mothers wombs for a gymnasium, but babies from strong, athletic parents are going to be far more likely to have the genetic predisposition to be strong and healthy. It's all genetic.

That is what I meant, just couldn't explain it clearly enough (apparently).
But now it's not the "smartest, strongest and the fastest" who get to breed but actually everyone.

digitalidad, insane people can't get married? what kind of law is that, I'm not too familiar with the law system in your country but at least here in finland everyone has the right to get married. I've seen mentally retarded people getting married.

But no, natural selection is not always making the decision, people who have bad genetic diseases can survive it and breed, babys who are week don't die, because of a good hospital system. People who have cancer don't always die, I'm not saying they should r anything, don't get me wrong.

[sheepdog]

baniboy, on Feb 11 2009, 08:10 AM, said:

But no, natural selection is not always making the decision, people who have bad genetic diseases can survive it and breed, babys who are week don't die, because of a good hospital system. People who have cancer don't always die, I'm not saying they should r anything, don't get me wrong.

Actually, my remark was to truefusion who stated intelligence is metaphysical.. Intelligence is a result of how well a persons brain works, the physical and chemical balances in the brain that make it function. Which of course, depends in part to genetics. I don't get where it's metaphysical.

But you are absolutly right. It is not the smartes, strongest and the fastest who get to breed and perpetuate the species. OUr many advances in medical technoligy have given life to many that othewise nature would of culled before they reached the age of maturity and gained the ability to reproduce.

This is actually something that really bugs me. As a dog breeder, I am expected to test for every genetic disease under the sun and never even consider breeding a dog that has a defect, or I am acused of beign a horrible puppy miller. Man kind tinkers with the genetics of just about every living organisim on the face of the earth in efforts to "improve" it, from cows that produce more milk to corn that develops it's own pesticide and bacteria that will eat plastic to rid the planet of our waste. However, NOTHING is ever done to breed better humans.

[truefusion]

sheepdog, on Feb 10 2009, 07:43 PM, said:

Ok, I'm not sure where you are coming from on that. Intelligence, just like everything else, is genetic. Stupid parents have stupid children or at any rate, the odds for stupid children are much higher when their parents are stupid. ... It's all genetic.

sheepdog, on Feb 11 2009, 01:20 PM, said:

Actually, my remark was to truefusion who stated intelligence is metaphysical. Intelligence is a result of how well a persons brain works, the physical and chemical balances in the brain that make it function. Which of course, depends in part to genetics. I don't get where it's metaphysical.

What makes a person smart or intelligent? Is it (1) the ability to hold and repeat information (like a parrot), (2) number 1 and the ability to test well, (3) the ability to solve problems (well) without previous knowledge, (4) the previous three combined, (5) merely how well their brain functions, or (6) all of the above? You've chosen to define it as the fifth one on that list. That means they could fail every test given to them, be bad at solving problems and be completely ignorant of everything in existence and still be considered intelligent so long as they have a well functioning brain, according to your definition. That means even a mentally retarded person cannot be considered intelligent even if they are progressing towards a "normal" state of mind. You'll notice, however, you can't define "intelligence" without comparison, just like many things. If you can't compare the object with another object, you have no definition of the word "intelligent"—it means nothing; the object just is. "Intelligence" is how we define it—there is no absolute definition for it.

[Quatrux]

Well, if talking about human evolution like a stop, it's over.. I doubt we reached the level and stopped evolving, as I remember reading, some parts in our body are still changing and with time may be gone naturally, only it will take some time.. Body parts which are useless for us, for example it's believed that we used to have a tail or something like that, our bone structure shows that? We have something like that in our back which is similar to the start of the tail, what is that bone called? in our rump.. Anyway it's believed to extinct and look much different in the future, I mean naturally..

Furthermore, I don't know how that body part is called in English, maybe "sty" .. the red thing in our eye, near the nose is also believed to extinct, as we don't have any use of it too, there are people who are born without it even Today.

When I said naturally, I also meant that it's believed, humans like a race will evolve artificially, I mean we might alter ourself with future technology.. for example to make our lungs similar to fish and then we could be able to live underwater, it's really possible, it just depends on time, I also read that 21 century might be the century of genetic engineering and such things when we will start altering ourself which absolutes the idea of evolution naturally, where 20th century is called the century of going to space, rocketry.

[Baniboy]

Quatrux, on Feb 11 2009, 11:54 PM, said:

Well, if talking about human evolution like a stop, it's over.. I doubt we reached the level and stopped evolving, as I remember reading, some parts in our body are still changing and with time may be gone naturally, only it will take some time.. Body parts which are useless for us, for example it's believed that we used to have a tail or something like that, our bone structure shows that? We have something like that in our back which is similar to the start of the tail, what is that bone called? in our rump.. Anyway it's believed to extinct and look much different in the future, I mean naturally..

Furthermore, I don't know how that body part is called in English, maybe "sty" .. the red thing in our eye, near the nose is also believed to extinct, as we don't have any use of it too, there are people who are born without it even Today.

When I said naturally, I also meant that it's believed, humans like a race will evolve artificially, I mean we might alter ourself with future technology.. for example to make our lungs similar to fish and then we could be able to live underwater, it's really possible, it just depends on time, I also read that 21 century might be the century of genetic engineering and such things when we will start altering ourself which absolutes the idea of evolution naturally, where 20th century is called the century of going to space, rocketry.

I didn't actually mean stopping even the topic name says so, evolution will never stop, we can never become "perfect".
I ment more like not evolving to be smarter and stronger anymore.

And btw the bone is called the tailbone if i remember correctly, it is dissapearing by the time but we can never be sure, we don't have enough other objects to compare it to. It's literally a pain in the *bottom* if you do a lot of sit-ups.

As for the evolution being done artificially, I could really REALLY use a few extra hands

[truefusion]

Quatrux, on Feb 11 2009, 04:54 PM, said:

Body parts which are useless for us, for example it's believed that we used to have a tail or something like that, our bone structure shows that? We have something like that in our back which is similar to the start of the tail, what is that bone called? in our rump.. Anyway it's believed to extinct and look much different in the future, I mean naturally..

baniboy, on Feb 12 2009, 02:27 PM, said:

And btw the bone is called the tailbone if i remember correctly, it is dissapearing by the time but we can never be sure, we don't have enough other objects to compare it to. It's literally a pain in the *bottom* if you do a lot of sit-ups.

The coccyx won't be disappearing; it's not a useless body part. There are many things attached to it and one of its purpose is to help support our body when we sit. There are other reasons for it, but just because we don't see any reason for anything doesn't mean there isn't any reason for its existence. People have been talking about how other body parts are useless or badly designed only to later find out it was fine just the way it is.

[Baniboy]

No, no body part is useless, but when a bodypart is not used anymore, it will dissapear/develope into something else in time. And (Oh yea I got you now hehe) it was not "designed".
Evolution can't design something new, it can only change the things that already exist. And human body is not perfect, we have a level 3 eye if you compare it to other animals when the scale is 1-10 in the history of different eye types and their development. We have a blind spot in it and it doesn't see very good to close objects when we get older since the of the proteine that makes the lens in the eye to be soft and change it's shape is producted by the body much less than when you're young. Humankind still has hair but it hasn't got "fur" anymore, since we decided to cut our hair but not the human fur surrounding our body (even tho some people do that too... )

The thing is, that when you use something a lot, (bodypart, hair or whatever) or lose a lot of it continiuosly, it developes to the needs you want. Look at monkeys, their legs look like their hands, 'cause they don't walk on 2 legs (apparently) and use it a lot for grabbing. Now the big toe has developed into a bodypart that helps us to maintain our balance, that, my friend is evolution (if you get the point).

Maybe tailbone will develope into something that helps us to sit on a chair for hours without feeling uncomfortable I'm not kidding tho...

[sheepdog]

Quote

What makes a person smart or intelligent?

Interesting question. I think I would have to go with number 6, all of the above. However, all of the brains activities depend on it's ability to function physically the way it was designed to do. So, if a person had a physical abnormality to the brain they might not do well in one or any of the first 5 of your list. Like, you can't run if you don't have legs?
It is however, extremely difficult to define intelligence, I certainly agree with that. I have seen many many people who may seem in some subjects to be seriously mentally challenged, however, it seems that they will have one talent in which they often far exceed the average person.

[kobra500]

No, Evolution can't stop, since all evolution is random gentic mutations, not to say that evolution is random, since natural selection makes it have a sort of intellegence.

off topic

"Religion is unconscious and metaphysical, therefore incapable of causing harm." Hitler didn't kill all the Jews personally, doesn't mean he is responsible for the death of x amount of jews...

Edited by kobra500, 14 February 2009 - 08:07 PM.

[mbafactory]

Hi,
I do not think that human evolution is stopping, we are continuously forwarding towards a genomical mix, this time we are proceeding towards the hybridization of machines and human. Artificial Intelligence, Android, and Robotics are the latest researches which are foraying into this domain. So this time it is not between genes and genes, rather genes and machines are going to form the human of future.

[Baniboy]

kobra500, on Feb 14 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

No, Evolution can't stop, since all evolution is random gentic mutations, not to say that evolution is random, since natural selection makes it have a sort of intellegence.

off topic

"Religion is unconscious and metaphysical, therefore incapable of causing harm." Hitler didn't kill all the Jews personally, doesn't mean he is responsible for the death of x amount of jews...

mbafactory, on Feb 15 2009, 07:57 AM, said:

Hi,
I do not think that human evolution is stopping, we are continuously forwarding towards a genomical mix, this time we are proceeding towards the hybridization of machines and human. Artificial Intelligence, Android, and Robotics are the latest researches which are foraying into this domain. So this time it is not between genes and genes, rather genes and machines are going to form the human of future.

Please read the replies before you just start replying! I already said that I didn't actually mean stopping but i ment that it would stop going to make us more intelligence and stronger.

And by the way, mbafactory, you seem a little too excited about atrificial intelligence, but the truth is I'm afraid, the artificial intelligence of today can hardly reach the intelligence of a potato. (in symbolical sence)

[gummybear]

i really doubt it. Look at the advancements simply within the past century, we've really come a long way. i don't think it's possible to stop evolving, the process of natural selection being that, those who fall short simply go extinct and the strong remain.

Think about the leaps we've made in medical technology, stem cell research for example.. biotech & biochemistry are also rapidly expanding fields... fifty years ago nobody would have thought we might use cells from discarded embryos ( "pluripotent cells" ) to cure diseases such as Parkinson's, Alzheimers, even lung disease.. but as long as the research is consistent, the day when such cures will be available doesn't seem too far off.

Edited by gummybear, 14 March 2009 - 04:30 AM.

[VishBoy]

I think it's not stopping 'cos today there are ~6B of people on the Earth, and in the 1950's there were just 0.5B ..... We see from the numbers how do the Humman Evolution is ceep growing and growing Only problem is that now days there are different kind of Viruses, no enought water, not enoughty food ..... That may cause Humman Evolution Stopping

[Baniboy]

VishBoy, on Jul 21 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

I think it's not stopping 'cos today there are ~6B of people on the Earth, and in the 1950's there were just 0.5B ..... We see from the numbers how do the Humman Evolution is ceep growing and growing Only problem is that now days there are different kind of Viruses, no enought water, not enoughty food ..... That may cause Humman Evolution Stopping

That has nothing to do with biological evolution

[LastCause]

the evolution is not stopping, we are geting a DNA upgrade as we speak

Wonderfull times to be alive!

[mbafactory]

Human evolution is a never ending process & it is not something which we are to decide, rather we all are a part of this. Have you noticed that we are continuing the evolution form in a very structured manner- various discoveries we have made have helped us change our ways of living. From stone age to metal age, industrial age to information age- evolution is happening. Who knows the mistakes we will make in the future will decide the future course of the humanity.

Physically too- we are adopting to the environment we are living in. Unutilized or underused parts of the body are disappearing, such as nails, hairs, long feet, palms all are getting proportional. Our mindset has evolved from pray hunters to man of wisdom.
Even when we will make grave mistake, will lose balance with the environment or come to the edge of disaster, evolution will be there to give a new form to current human life.

[Diffusr]

Evolution cannot possibly stop. It is chaos theory being played out in real time, and everything evolves and adapts to it's inner and outer environment.
Evolution branches off into different directions all the time.
As far as the theory goes, humans and chimpanzees have a common ancestor. At one point the genetic line split and humans evovled into humans, chimpanzees into chimpanzees.
The ones that became human may have done so because their environment changed and it was beneficial to walk on two legs, lose body hair, think their way through problems.
Whereas the chimpanzees were thriving being stronger, more agile, covered in body hair and with very good short term memory (actually better than humans). Their needs were matched and they didn't have to think as much so never evolved higher brain function. Chimps don't write books, sing songs, design pentium processors, fly aircraft etc.
We humans have a huge mental advantage.
The problem is now as organisms, will we self destruct? As we reach a critical mass, unless we clean up after ourselves, we will end up like bacteria in a petri dish. We succeed and multiply rapidly, then poison ourselves with the pollution we produce and everybody gets wiped out.
Perhaps that is just the way nature goes.
The difference between the bacteria and us is that we are aware of what is happening and can observe , communicate and present possible solutions to the problem at hand.
We actually have a conscious input in the direction of human evolution.

Edited by Diffusr, 09 December 2009 - 02:03 PM.

[webishqiptar]

well in my opinion there's no evolution, but only some kind of adoption to improving technology, which will make our head bigger and our body smaller.

[getube]

Human evaliton is not over by now. It is happening in little by little in comming generations.
The evalution is based on 'surviaval of the fittest' in age old days evolution was happening in
large scale and each species has adapted to the existing enviornment(nature). Now the nature
itself is changing(due to polutions) so we and all other species need to be get adapted to it get
a new balanced life. In future there may be evolution of species which can survive in an enviornment with less 0xigen and more polution Evolution can never end, since it is
a try of existance with the sourrounding nature and life

[linekill]

Evolution (all organisms) will never cease. It's a constant process. Everything will constantly change towards perfection. Of course perfection is never achievable so it will always change. And evolution is not limited to the organism, it may also be applied to the tools that organism uses. For those who are old enough to have tried using the typewriter, how different was it then compared to using the computer? And with globalization, interracial marriage is now ever so active. So we expect more diversity of the human species. Useful Asian traits added to Caucasians and all.

So I believe Evolution will never stop. It might slow down for some time, but there will always be outside stimulus that will pressure a species (human or not) to change for the better. (What better means will depend on how you look at things.)