32 replies to this topic

[Parubilla]

Well off course natural medicines are wayyy better than the artificial ones, but I completely agree with you the regular doctors don't prescribe those medicines because the regular medical insurance don't cover those medicines, but there are certain companies that in their doctor list have like regular doctor with the alternative specialization, and those are the doctors I personally choose, because they have this especial training where they can prescribe the regular drug and then they can give you also the alternative one the natural one (homeopathic), and there is this german laboratory that produces all of this drugs I have been taking the alternative drugs for a while and they work really good, better than the others, the problem is that obviously the insurance doesn't cover this drugs and some of them are really expensive, but definitely if you have the possibility to buy them, does wonders for your body.

I also agree with you with the flu vaccine, I have never taken the flu shot, because I've seen a lot of people that has taken it, and get the flu more often than before. I can't say i don't get any flu, actually It's really common in me but it past whitin days so it's not that horrible I can live with it. haha

anwiii, on Nov 27 2009, 07:43 PM, said:

i am not saying medical research is bad in all cases. all i am saying is that are some medicines worth it. you use antibiotics as an example for some reason when everyone knows antibiotics only work for so long until until the body is immune to them.

i am also a believer in natural cures that can actually me found in medical journals...but you wont see doctors prescribing them. why? because insurance companies wont pay out. this leaves medicines big business without alternatives....when there really are. but alternatives isn't really the point to the thread

i have never taken a flu shot. EVER. and i have been ok. what about those in their 60's and 70's when their immune system is going to crap. should they take it? the whole point of the thread was why pushing a flu shot so hard? it's because of $. even when people don't need a shot, they encourage everyone to get one and they put fear in people stating the viruses are airborn and can be trasmitted to just about anybody.

is this true? can it be transmitted to just about anyone? if so, why isn't everyone gettin' it without even taking a shot? they talk about swine flu as an epedemic and it's not. it's being overexagerated by medical professionals that aren't looking for alternatives....even ones immune system as an alternative.

it does bother me that some shots aren't tested enough to know the true consequence and outcome for any specific type of person. wiuth the flu shot being pushed to every residence, it's really hard to know what the effects would be if they didn't take a shot and how usefull a flu shot really is to the common person.

antibiotics was given as an example. we might as well be talking about anesthetics. as they are required before someone goes in to surgery. problem is, they are unsafe as many people don't wake up from them and these anesthetics are a direct result in peoples death...but i do believe we have more knowledge in anesthetics and antibiotics than we do any flu shot when there are multiple strains out there ever year and to test a vaccine for a couple years would make the testing useless.

would i ever take a shot? not in my present condition because i believe i am healthy and do believe my body wont be letting me down any time soon to protect from viruses naturally. my mom believes in them wholehearedly and has encouraged her whole family to get them. even me. before this thread even popped up, i was arguing with my mom that it could be just as unsafe to have one as it is not to have one. the scarey part is that there are no facts to support either side. but i can see that if a person is tested to have a low immune system which would be harder for one to fight off a virus, that they have an option to take some precautions.

now i haven't researched what small amounts of mercury does to ones body....but it would be scarey to find out any bad effects it can have. i don'te trust medicines as i don't trust doctors...but if i were in a position to have to trust, i would pray first because i know even the doctors don't know fully what they are doing sometimes and it's scarey. a lot of doctors don't practice what has alreaady been recorded in medical journals as cures or a safer way to practice medicine because of the insurance companies wanting to go with a standard from people who are in the field to make a buck.

so for me, it doesn't just stop at a swine flu vaccination....although the vaccination is a good example of using scare tactics to make a buck and the ultimate reality that we have no choice sooner or later to TRUST what they give us without fully informing us of what they are giving us and the causes and effects of what they give us

you also talk about medical professional advice. please define that.....because there are still professionals in the medical field that will argue with one another about proper medical practices.

[kobra500]

What debate? take the Vaccine or Don't; the latter means you risk contracting H1N1 and then spreading it on to your family, friends, colleagues who won't appreciate it. Taking the Vaccine means you get injected with a needle and thats about it. It's no different from a seasonal flu virus and if you aren't going to take it then don't it is your choice but there is no real reason not to, people will always say "IT WILL GIVE YOU AIDS" or something similar but it doesn't make it true, but I'm sure they know best with there years of Training: oh wait thats the scientist, my mistake. Take the damn jab, if something bad happens as a result at least you get gloat that I was wrong.

[Baniboy]

Shots for regular flu? Damn, that's so stupid. No offense to anyone personally but taking a shot for flu is just dumb. I would rather get the flu. The only problem is, I'm not getting the flu. Ironic, isn't?

As for H1N1 vaccine. It increases the risk of some kind of brain disorder.
shadowx:
Nice numbers, but you analyze them in a wrong way. 0.4% of people who get the virus die. 0.03% percent(in your example) of people WHO GET THE VACCINE, die. You can't say that those getting the vaccine would have gotten the virus. Thus, you can't compare the danger. Here in Finland, there have been 11 deaths caused by the virus. All victims were already sick, the virus just kind of finished them off. I'm healthy, I almost never get any flu and if I do, I'm not puking, having fever and screaming from pain all the time. The doctor told my mother that she or my 6 yr old bro shouldn't get the vaccine, because they are totally healthy. I am too, and I would rather kill that son of a bleep virus myself

With this kind of vaccine, made in a hurry and tested on monkeys, we don't know the long term effects. There is also no data of how the vaccine behaves when injected into under 3 year olds and children between age 10 to 17. All the recommendations for these age groups are not backed up by ANY DATA. Mind you, I would rather go with normal drugs designed for influenza treatment which are tested and used many times and are proven to be effective.

If a lot of people around you get the virus, you have a greater chance of getting the disease than a rare vaccine side effect. But as most kids in my school will take the shot, the risk of me getting the piglet is small(hahaha, now that's a smart freaking move). And even if I did get the virus, there's even a smaller chance of dying because I'm in good condition(well, can you run 3 km in 12 minutes?).

Edited by Baniboy, 28 November 2009 - 07:46 PM.

[shadowx]

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What kind of argument is this?????!!!! You just can't say: Windows sucks, and people buy it because they're stupid...

I can, i do, i did and i will. Windows is developed for those who dont know how to use other operating systems. Microsoft will tell you it does everything a computer can possibly do. False. It allows the user to do very little in actual fact. But that's another debate.

A vaccine causes the illness: FALSE
The h1n1 vaccine and all other flu vaccines are made by modifying a harmless virus. they take some virus (cant remember its name) which humans cant be affected by and modify it by adding the h1n1 genetic data, hence making a hybrid virus. This is then injected into eggs (or into another carrier for egg-allergy sufferers) and once the egg attacks the hybrid virus it will produce antibodies which will kill the original h1n1 virus. Think of anti bodies as armour piercing rounds. You dont need to face a tank full of crew and ammo to develop a round to use against it. You simply need to see its empty, dead shell. Its armour. Your body doesnt need to fight an active infection, it simply needs to "see" the genetic data and "shape" of the attacker to form an effective defence. This is why there is no vaccine for the common cold. Every single cold you catch is different from the last. Your body becomes immune to the cold you had last week but is still unaware that the cold you will catch next year even exists, so it cant defend against it.

Back in the day when they were vaccinating against cow pox i think it could indeed cause cow pox in the patient simply because they took active, living pox virus and inserted it straight into the patient (i think, my history is shaky) . But nowadays a real, living virus is NOT used and cannot infect you.

You can however develop symptoms of a general infection. Eg a slight temperature increase or perhaps a runny nose but this is NOT a viral infection. When your body is under attack it will do a few things, one is to heat up to try and cook the virus to death, the other is to product mucus in your airways which is then sent up your throat to your nose and mouth to be spat out or swallowed. This mucus, or phlegm ( said "flem") is meant to carry the virus out of your body away from your lungs. So, your body sees a virus being injected into the skin and panics, it sends defenders to the attacks to fight it off and sometimes over-reacts causing the temperature, runny nose etc... But you will NOT develop the illness and you can NOT infect others.

As for my wrong facts... I never claimed they were perfect, i was working on the assumption that 100% of people either caught the virus or were vaccinated. Even without that assumption my facts show that overall, in the world today, right now, the virus is much more dangerous than the vaccine and more people worldwide have died of the virus.

To those that think i am a fool for wanting the vaccine...

I ask you, do you know children? old people? Those with health conditions? That you personally meet, even on a weekly or less basis? Given the fact that a recent study said only 1/10 of the people infected knew it (eg, if 100 people have symptoms then 900 still have the virus but dont know) and the fact that the virus, as with any flu, can be deadly to those with bad health or weak immune systems then YOU, could cause the death of one of those people by not having the jab when offered. Obviously there are precautions like general hygiene but im just giving you that thought.

Swine flu is no more dangerous than ordinary flu, and i do agree that the global community is panicking here, but given the bird flu scare and then the spanish flu epidemic humankind does have a reason to be afraid of flu. however, let's not get this out of proportion. If you are never offered the normal flu jab or you have had the flu before and just felt pretty rough then you have nothing to worry about. you have a tiny, tiny chance of complications. Still, it wont be pleasant but i agree, natural vaccination through infection is best. I imagine the jab isnt 100% effective and actually getting immunity through infection is probably more effective, however for those in the "at risk" group, this isnt an option. Infection could easily cause death or hospitalization, faced with that i would much rather have the jab.

Wouldnt you agree?

With relevance to the ingredients in the vaccine, i have directed you to the article showing that a fillet of salmon has more mercury than the jab, so yes, yes i would happily injest that amount of mercury, I'm already full of it from the trace amounts in everyday life so why not.

With relevance to the other toxins i would rather have them than the flu thank you very much (*rolls up sleeve*)


Quote time...

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The doctor told my mother that she or my 6 yr old bro shouldn't get the vaccine, because they are totally healthy. I am too, and I would rather kill that son of a bleep virus myself

Good, i too would suggest not having the jab. Your body can easily fight off the infection, though i hope that hypothesis isnt tested

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What debate? take the Vaccine or Don't; the latter means you risk contracting H1N1 and then spreading it on to your family, friends, colleagues who won't appreciate it. Taking the Vaccine means you get injected with a needle and thats about it. It's no different from a seasonal flu virus and if you aren't going to take it then don't it is your choice but there is no real reason not to, people will always say "IT WILL GIVE YOU AIDS" or something similar but it doesn't make it true, but I'm sure they know best with there years of Training: oh wait thats the scientist, my mistake. Take the damn jab, if something bad happens as a result at least you get gloat that I was wrong.

In the words of Jim Carey: "And the TRUTH, shall set you free..." Well done.

Though i concede that scientists have massive holes in their knowledge they have enough experience here for my mind. Science has been fighting the flu every year for many, many years now. It isnt 100% safe, but you PC might short circuit and blow your face off right now, its a game of numbers.

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Well off course natural medicines are wayyy better than the artificial ones,

Disagree. In many ways the medicines we take now ARE the natural ones, but they are highly refined and combined with other natural remedies to make them more powerful. Aspirin and paracetamol are classic examples. Both originally found and made from natural plants, but concentrated and enhanced to give more power. Some things however are better naturally, even down to meditation and yoga. Medical treatment doesnt have to be drugs

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The problem is that all of the ingredients(chemicals) in the world if taken overdose cause harm. Not just mercury, formaldehyde or whatever.

True, however dosage is the important factor here. Measure the atmosphere where you are right now. It will contain ozone, at the very least, which is a toxic gas that is formed when uv light hits oxygen molecules, it is often formed a lot in the summer which is why a lot of people with asthma suffer more in the summer. Of you breathe in a lot of ozone it will kill you. However, you are breathing it in right now and you are fine. You are also being bombarded with radiation, but you arent dying from it because the dose is so low.

I dont know the lethal doses for those chemicals, however they are obviously well below that level in the vaccine otherwise it would have a huge mortality rate. I also dont expect they are anywhere near the harmful level. There is no need to put them that high as it's not as if baxter have a formaldehyde vaccine that they can then sell to the people who buy the flu jab. They cant generate extra income from it.

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The condition of asthma appears now at a much higher rate ever before in the history of breathing, and appears to be on the increase. One cause of asthma has been linked to vaccinations.

I was vaccinated with the standard jabs here in the UK, it's probably a few, about 5 or 6 including the flu jab i got last year for the first time. However, i cant argue against your theory, i dont have the facts to use, i can however offer a few alternatives... polution in the last 100-150 years has been at its highest ever thanks to human activity, this includes of course exhaust gasses. Smoke and other pollutants (i mentioned ozone) are a major cause in asthma attacks, in fact it is probably the biggest cause, after perhaps general allergies including dust mites. You are referring to a trend whereby as time increases so does asthma incidence. If you were to draw this as a graph over the last 200 years and then overlay two other graphs for the same time period showing atmospheric pollution and the rates of increase in other reported disease you would almost certainly see all these lines following the same trend. Upwards. People are now more health conscious than ever, going to the doctor about every little thing, so more and more people are diagnosed. think back to before asthma was known of, the doctor would say its a cough and be done with it. a 0% incidence of asthma, doesnt mean it didnt exist of course, just that no-one was diagnosed with it. Your facts are based on diagnosis which is fairly intendant of actual illness, it depends on whether the victim goes to a doctor and what the doctor subjectively thinks the problem is.

I may look into this later though, its an interesting thought and like i said, i dont have the facts to say you are wrong, but my alternatives are fairly convincing.

I'm going to end my post on a few notes:

i do not trust drug companies. I do not distrust them either. I have yet to see evidence of either verdict but i do believe they are chasing the money and curing disease comes second. That's pretty much a fact.

I do not advocate healthy people getting the jab unless they are in contact regularly with at risk groups (eg carers) or are front line emergency staff (hospitals mainly). These groups can easily pass the virus on and lead to the death of someone, and in the case of emergency workers, who do you go to when all the doctors and nurses are ill? Who is more important in a fire, the emergency personnel or the victims? If the emergency works were all out of action through illness or injury then there would be no-one to save the countless thousands later on.

[kobra500]

@Baniboy: There is no proven link between Flu Vaccines and brain disorders; and any of the disorders that could in theory be caused such as Guillain-Barre Syndrome is less dangerous than the disease and highly treatable, and this is a possible side affect of any kind of vaccine because it is your bodies auto-immune response, Thymerisal was believed to cause Autism in Children such that it was taken out but then the Scientist realised that mothers don't know best when it comes to disease, did some research and boom! no it doesn't, there is no link between the two. Just people creating conspiracies as usual.

[webishqiptar]

I guess this debate, is misunderstood. In fact there are several problems associated with the reactions from swine flu vaccine, which can lead either to paralysis, but there is no problem to take the normal flu vaccine. So don't be bothered from side effects of normal vaccines, they are very rare and there's no evidence.

[shadowx]

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In fact there are several problems associated with the reactions from swine flu vaccine, which can lead either to paralysis

DO you have facts figures and numbers for this? Even just a link i could follow?

I highly doubt this is actual fact and is more of a rumour, but if you can prove it then I'll believe it. The fact still remains, the virus is more dangerous than the vaccine.

[Misanthrope]

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A vaccine causes the illness: FALSE

Outside the sophomoric (and oh so pungeunt) realm of the junior high locker room, I find myself questioning how the flinging about of "FALSE" definitives helps further productive debate on the subject at hand, short of intimidating the less bold (or the less verbose?) into submission. Maybe it’s just me. I’ve always taken exception with internet “shouting” as it strikes me uncivil and counter-productive to rational discourse in a realm where all we have at our disposal are words. The topic at hand here is the inherent toxity of the highly questionable H1N1 vaccine alleged to counter the curious swine flu, which above poster claims is less malignant than the virus itself. Time and history, I fear, continues to demonstrate otherwise. As some within this thread have wisely noted, (including above poster if I’m not mistaken), the virus itself has been trumped up to fear-mongering panic levels far in excess of it’s actual threat, thanks to - in my observation - our fascist/controlled media. Simply put, H1N1 appears at this time to be just another flu virus, albeit of dubious origin. And much of what I’ve gathered thus far demonstrates the so-called “cure” is worse than the disease. Far worse.

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Nowadays a real, living virus is NOT used and cannot infect you.

I find myself in disagreement with above argument but more specifically the poster's negative shout, which violates my sense of internet protocol. My understanding is a live virus is in indeed inherent in the HINI Flumist vaccine. The following documentation substantiates my initial and secondary submissions, those being the recently treated are in fact contagious to those they come in contact with. Kindly focus your attentions to the last sentence (in italics):

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Hospitals in Colorado and elsewhere are shunning the FluMist H1N1 vaccine, a nasal spray that contains live swine flu virus, because of fears it could infect people with weakened immune systems and underlying health conditions.
“Several metro area hospitals said they won’t be taking the FluMist because they don’t want to endanger patients,” reports TheDenverChannel.com.
Lois VanFleet, infection prevention specialist at Exempla Good Samaritan Medical Center in Lafayette, expressed concern that doctors and nurses who inhaled the live virus could infect patients whose immune systems are compromised.
However, H1N1 FluMist is being rolled out nationwide from this week, including at “drive-through clinics” across the country where the nasal spray is administered while people sit in their cars with their window wide open (see top picture).
The live virus contained in the nasal spray is weakened but it can be transmitted from person to person for up to three weeks.

Above submission should lay to rest unfounded beliefs the misinformed have regarding the volatile and very real contagious nature of those recently compromised with H1N1 vaccine. Those still suffering under the misguided delusion they can't catch flu from the recently treated would be advised to remove the rose colored glasses lest they become unwilling vectors of H1N1.

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a fillet of salmon has more mercury than the jab, so yes, yes i would happily injest that amount of mercury, I'm already full of it from the trace amounts in everyday life so why not.

Following this illogical line of thought, I may as well throw myself off the nearest cliff because I’m going to die someday anyway, right? Or, since my tap water may contain trace levels of pharmaceutical psychotropics, injecting Prozac directly into my blood stream might not be such a bad idea. A fitting philosophy for the suicidal, defeatist nihilist, I suppose. But those who actually embrace life would be well advised to think twice before laying themselves prostrate before governments' latest fascist experiment. As was stated in a previous post, a vaccine (unlike a fillet of dead salmon) bypasses the body’s normal defenses and is no way analogous to everyday hazards which come into play. Well, maybe a poor analogy. Very poor.

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There is no proven link between Flu Vaccines and brain disorders

The Health Protection Agency would disagree, per correspondence sent to 600 neurologists regarding a previous swine flu vaccination experiment inflicted on the public, circa 1976. Following are highlights than anyone with internet access can easily confirm:

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- More people died from the vaccination than from swine flu.
- 500 cases of GBS were detected.
- The vaccine may have increased the risk of contracting GBS by eight times.
- The vaccine was withdrawn after just ten weeks when the link with GBS became clear.
- The US Government was forced to pay out millions of dollars to those affected.....

Make no mistake, the current swine flu experiment is just that, as it has been forced on a gullible public sans the rigorous testing any product should undergo before public release. I'm supposed to roll up my sleeve or bare my nasal cavities to this garbage? They will have to find unwitting guinea pigs elsewhere, I'm afraid. And we have yet to see H1N1's full toxic fallout unravel.

The above submissions are not conjecture, "rumor," or crazed conspiracy dreamt up while the Enlightened Misanthrope was under the influence of 100% Agave Tequila (although this time of year I prefer Scotch). On the contrary, the evidence above speaks for itself, and presents a strong argument against needlessly exposing oneself to Baxter's H1N1's toxic money making venture.

Edited by Misanthrope, 05 December 2009 - 09:08 AM.