16 replies to this topic

[rob86]

I recently purchased a Yamaha DTXplorer Electronic Drum Kit. I went with an electronic kit for a few reasons, namely quiet practicing, compactness, and I happen to like electronic gadgets. It comes with a ride cymbal, crash cymbal, three toms, one snare, hi hat, hi-hat controller, and bass pedal. I'm impressed with it, it seems to be pretty good. It's a bit strange why they didnt make the hi-hat a cymbal pad instead of a round drum pad, but I guess it is the most affordable model, so I can't expect it to compare to the higher end Yamaha's or Rolands. Some day, I'd love to have a high-end electronic kit, but the DTXplorer seems to be a great value for a beginner. I haven't tried out the sound quality much, I just have it hooked up to computer speakers (yuck, I know, give me a chance to buy some adapters to amp it up!) but I imagine it will sound pretty good loud with some reverb.

I really have no idea how to play it though. Can anyone tell me some beginner tips? Like, the correct way to hold the flippin' sticks? I'm not sure if I should hold them like I'm going to throw them across the room, or hold them like I'm in some marching band.

I thought I could get away without a drum throne - Hey, I'm a n00b I thought, why do I need a fancy chair? - so I used a wooden stool that was about an inch too high for me (I could barely control the bass and high hat). Now my neck and back are so sore I can hardly move my head, and my foot goes numb whenever I play for more than 15 minutes. The moral of the story is simple, buy a damn throne.

[Baniboy]

Yes, buy a damn throne, a good one here costs about 50 €. It's a good kit. One thing to remind you of tho, you should first start playing drums and then decide if you want to buy a kit. Because if you decide you don't like playing them, you have wasted your money.

Anyway, here's a tutorial to teach you match grip:

It tells you what you want to know, but the teacher's grip isn't very good(= Somewhat like what you said, like you're gonna throw it). So I took a picture of myself holding the stick like it should be hold:
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The thing is that you have to hold the stick between your thumb and the index finger in the pic. Now, you use the rest(try closing them) to move the stick so it hits the drum, all three, you have to use your pinkie as well, although you won't want to at first. When the stick hits the pad, it'll bounce back. All you have to do is to let it bounce back. Try to not wrap your index finger around the stick, it'll suffocate the bounce. I have long fingers, so I leave the rest of the index finger rest in the air like that. So when the stick hits the pad/drum, let it come back without suffocating the bounce with the 3 fingers you forced it down to.

So from where should you hold stick? Search the spot this way:
Hold your stick above the pad using the match grip I taught you above, then, don't hit the pad intentionally but just let the stick drop(not completely out of your hold, just so it has the freedom to move). Search the spot where it bounces more and is more stably than other spots. This is the spot you're going to keep between your thumb and forefinger.(you can also try to find the balance point of the stick and move 2 inches back, but it won't work that good).
Then learn the singe stroke roll.

Again, disregard what he's saying about the match grip. You can see he's holding it against what he says in his left hand. Anyway, using that technique is beneficial at first, but will stop you from being fast and having control. Because when you play fast, you won't do it with the wrist, but the fingers. This guy is using almost nothing else than his wrists(mostly because he's suffocating the bounce himself) and he looks like a freaking robot. Anyway, see that "click" button in your drum module? click on that. Will take you to the metronome settings. The metronome is the annoying company of drummers. Adjust the speed to "80", then use the arrow buttons to navigate and time it to "300"(the last one on top left) meaning it'll last for 5 minutes. Now click the button that has the words "on/off, tap". Press that and the metronome should start its annoying noise. Now, do the single stroke roll(try 4x at first, then move to 8x and 16x if you can do it without messing up) in the same rhythm as the metronome. Keep it consistent. And trust me, this will pay off later. Now, if you're right handed, you started the first hit on the beat with the right hand. Time the metronome to 300 secs again and start with your left hand this time, harder, isn't it? That's why you're going to focus more + add 60 seconds more.


Do all this and report back.

[inverse_bloom]

Hey playing drums is fun, well i could only play parts of 2 songs to be honest. One of the songs was a minute into "Nirvana: Aneurysm". You should try to learn that one it good fun. Regarding your drum sticks, well i was taught to hold them like you'd throw them across the room.

Does it feel different to play on an electronic drum kit compared to a conventional kit i wonder? Id expect it wouldnt have as much kick back.

[rob86]

I haven't practiced the single roll yet, but I watched the videos and am trying to understand what you said. I get that you hold the sticks between your index and thumb, and it pivots on that balance point, but I don't understand using the three fingers to move the stick. I can drum on the pads, but my extra fingers don't seem very involved with what's going on, so I don't think I'm doing it the way you said to.

@inverse_bloom

I don't have enough experience on acoustic drums to really compare, but the pads seem pretty bouncy. Electronic kits are designed to feel like acoustic drums, whether they succeed or not probably depends on the kit.

[Baniboy]

I made an amateur animation of how you hit with the stick. As you can see, you move your wrist just a little at the start so the stick bounces back enough. After the stick bounces back, you use mostly fingers to force it down one more time and just move your fingers to starting position. The stick will bounce back and you won't have to use your wrists much anymore. You just try "closing your hand" without forefinger or thumb. Using this technique, you won't have to use wrists like the guy in the video. Keep the ends of all 3 fingers below the stick. 3 fingers is stronger and has more endurance than just 2 or 1. Use wrists + fingers when you hit accents(= louder notes). You won't have any control if you don't keep the pinkie below the stick. Play slowly, focus on the single stroke roll and when you develop some muscles between your thumb's "root" and forefinger as well as the muscle right below your smallest(hopefully) finger. These muscles will give you control over the stick, you can force it to whatever position you want it to, you can force when it hits the pad as hard as it hit the last time even if it hit the pad and didn't bounce back well enough. Doing single stroke roll enough during every workout creates muscle memory, which means you can do it without thinking about it or focusing on it. This will give you the power to do all kinds of crap that sounds cool while you're doing the roll(like placing accents in strategical spots to make it sound good).
 stickan.gif   16.97K   9 downloads
Happy drumming, and the grip I told you about will feel awkward at first, but you'll get used to it. Just practice on the snare drum.

As for the realisticness of electric drums. Usually toms have a loose surface, in electric drums, the surface tightness isn't adjustable and it's same for all the pads but it's a good way to practice.

[rob86]

This is a little off topic, but did you know Sabian cymbals are made just hours from where I live? I'm not sure if you know the history of the cymbal makers, but the Zildjian brothers had a fight, split up, and one of them formed Sabian cymbals in my province. Drummers from all over the world travel to this little town just to buy some custom Sabian cymbals. It's almost all farmland in that area, it's a really remote place for an internationally known business. Considering my province, New Brunswick, isn't known for much, I always thought it was pretty cool that Sabian puts us on the map.

Anyway, I'll try out what you taught later in the day and let you know how it goes.

[rob86]

I've been practicing the technique you described, with the fingers. I can kind of see how it's done, but it sure feels weird. I've looked at maybe half a dozen lessons and videos and none of them touch on that method at all. They all use the wrist/arm. Is it an advanced technique or something? I've been working on the single roll doing the normal (in the video) method and it's not so bad, but when I use the fingers it falls apart. I can see how it might be a beneficial technique though with its economical movement. I guess I'll keep at it. I hope I'm understanding it right, I think I am, but like I said, it feels weird!

[anwiii]

i have never played the drums...but i have been a semi pro bowler and dart player(semi pro meaning i've won a lot of money). there are people out there that will actually teach you how to hold and release a bowling ball just like there are people out there to teach how to hold and throw a dart. ALL teachings are pretty much b.s. and i can tell you now even though i don't play, anyone who teaches one proper way to hold the drum sticks is bsing you.

any teachings should be used as a guide only...but the more you practice, you will get more comfortable with any basic techniques and develop your own style. so what i am saying is NO style is the correct one. you will form your own over time. so, research the different styles and find one you are most comfortable with and use that as a starting point. no need to be uncomfortable playing the drums because it's supposed to be FUN FIRST. the more you play and have fun with it, the more comfortable you will be in finding your own style. let YOUR style come later. not now. i am assuming there are several ways to hold the drum sticks so just choose the easiest way for YOU right now.

you're own style will come naturally later on with a lot of practice....trust me

rob86, on Dec 28 2009, 12:51 PM, said:

I've been practicing the technique you described, with the fingers. I can kind of see how it's done, but it sure feels weird. I've looked at maybe half a dozen lessons and videos and none of them touch on that method at all. They all use the wrist/arm. Is it an advanced technique or something? I've been working on the single roll doing the normal (in the video) method and it's not so bad, but when I use the fingers it falls apart. I can see how it might be a beneficial technique though with its economical movement. I guess I'll keep at it. I hope I'm understanding it right, I think I am, but like I said, it feels weird!

[Baniboy]

anwiii, on Dec 28 2009, 09:03 PM, said:

i have never played the drums...but i have been a semi pro bowler and dart player(semi pro meaning i've won a lot of money). there are people out there that will actually teach you how to hold and release a bowling ball just like there are people out there to teach how to hold and throw a dart. ALL teachings are pretty much b.s. and i can tell you now even though i don't play, anyone who teaches one proper way to hold the drum sticks is bsing you.

any teachings should be used as a guide only...but the more you practice, you will get more comfortable with any basic techniques and develop your own style. so what i am saying is NO style is the correct one. you will form your own over time. so, research the different styles and find one you are most comfortable with and use that as a starting point. no need to be uncomfortable playing the drums because it's supposed to be FUN FIRST. the more you play and have fun with it, the more comfortable you will be in finding your own style. let YOUR style come later. not now. i am assuming there are several ways to hold the drum sticks so just choose the easiest way for YOU right now.

you're own style will come naturally later on with a lot of practice....trust me

Me begs to disagree. I'm not teaching him only one way to play drums. I'm teaching him the match grip the right way so he doesn't suffocate the bounce like all those youtube drummers. You say you've never played the drums before. I beg to ask, have you ever played any musical instrument that you have to technically master? Because if you have, imagine me playing piano with my thumbs and index fingers only? Does that sound like a technique newbie would choose right away because it's easier or something that is taught by the masters of playing piano? Sometimes you need someone who guides you so you don't end up bleeping up your own playing. Holding onto the stick like you're hanging from it forces you to waste energy to bring the stick back up to hit it down again, which could be used to create great music. Besides, you can't hit ghost-notes properly(= the notes you barely hear but can sound cool when used) with wrists only.

I could teach him match grip, french grip, traditional grip etc, just letting him now about the easiest. If you don't start with the right technique, it'll be harder to change that to play better after you've got used to it. And I'm telling this from experience, I too started with the bastardized hold and suffocated the bounce, I didn't do rudiments either, but when I got a new teacher that didn't just teach me beats(that I didn't even play in the right rhythm thanks to the fact that I wasn't advised to use the metronome for longer than 10 minutes in a row), my playing got much better. Sticks have only one way of bouncing, and developing your own style isn't the best option if that style isn't as good as other styles. It's like high-jump in sports, do you expect anyone to jump with the old style (see pics of it, use g-search) anymore? No, because that doesn't bring as good results as the style they use nowadays. Developing your own style will come, yes, but that's when you already know how to play the kit, just giving him a good start.


@Rob: I forgot to say, try to keep your hands and sticks so they don't look like this: ||, but like this: /\, and just sit up straight, relax shoulders and you can play without getting any painful side-effects(well, that is if you aren't trying that on purpose).

[anwiii]

no doubt you know your stuff, bani....i am not arguing that. we are talking about style...and you are talking about one type of grip. now although i don't have any drum playing experience, i do know style and reflects on my past experiences when there are more ways than one to teach someone.

this is why i say anything being shown should be a guide ONLY because it's more important to find ones own personal touch and style and comfortability.

the only reason why i even posted what i did is because some people forget about the purpose of playing the drums. they will be so focused on doing it right, it will not be any fun. believe me. i was told how to hold and throw a ball from a coach and it was uncomfortable just like what rob said about a certain grip. and believe me, this is one of the lessons i learned which allowed me to become a good teacher on techniques.

what i learned was that i did have to try different techniques until i found something that was comfortable and not so forced to be able to enjoy what i was doing. THEN over time, i sorta changed my techniques gradually over time without any help from anyone. the more i got better, the more my technique changed until i had my own personal technique that can't be taught in any video or animated drawing.

and with drums, obviously there will be many techniques in holding the sticks since it's not just banging the drums.

people get so wrapped up in teaching something that they forget to teach some of the most important things. i know rob asked how to hold the sticks, but my comment was for rob, not you but even you are not getting the whole point when someone is trying to learn something new.

i'm a piano player myself. took lessons FOREVER. one of the first things i was taught was to raise my fingers more for more proper form rather than have my fingers playing flat against the keys. that advice is BS! and i can take that information and relate it to drums that i never played.

technique is a combination of a lot of things. not just one thing. i got burnt out with lessons because my teacher refused to teach me anything but classical when i wouldn't liked to play some classic rock type stuff.

this is my expertise in some ways bani because when there are a lot of people teaching something different, a person can become very confused. and then, if someone isn't using the right technique according to one person, critisism can set it and when people tend to be focused on a lot of the bs, they forget to just have fun with it. now THIS is my whole point bani which you have failed to get and i shouldn't have to explain myself if you are as good as you portray because you have already gone through the hardships of learning.

fact is bani, there is no right or wrong way. the only way is the way that works for each individual and it's important that whatever technique that individual is learning, that it is comfortable.....not uncomfortable when starting out because when one gets better, hi technique is just going to naturally change in to something that is easier and probably more difficult than if he learned it straight away...

also, what's easy for one, may not be easy for another. rob just wants to have some fun with his new toy and maybe do a little mixing so what i offer is an approach OTHER than a forced technique that can allow him to have his fun straight away with his new toy.

[rob86]

I realize that no single person should be the source of all instrument learning, I'm learning from more than one place and putting all the knowledge together. I also understand the value of practice and doing things right - putting some effort into it. It's not all fun and games, being a skilled musician takes some dedicated practicing and not just jamming. I play guitar, I'm used to the drudgery that is scale practicing to a metronome.

Anyway, I appreciate Bani's teaching, it's good to have some kind of guidance.

An interesting thing to add to the discussion, is that it's surprising what can come out of someone developing their own technique and style. One guy comes to mind, Canadian rocker Jeff Healey, who developed his own technique because of his blindness. He's famous for his ballads, but I prefer his more raw blues-rock stuff. Check out a youtube video to see his unique style. He had nobody to teach him, and couldn't see pictures, so he just did what felt right to him. He wasn't just a good guitarist for a blind guy, he was a great guitarist in general. It's amazing how someone can get so good doing something completely different. I didn't know anything about him until he died a few years ago and I looked him up to see why his death was such big news.

[rob86]

I think I'm getting the hang of the method you taught, but it's hard to be sure. I might take a picture of my hand if I find my camera, but for now here's a description of what I'm doing. I have my thumb on one side of the stick, and the other four fingers on the other side, so all my fingers are touching the stick. Sometimes my fingers are touching it in the padded part of the finger, other times it slips down to the joint area (the joint nearest the fingertip) and rests in there. I'm not sure which is better, but when it's in that joint as opposed to on the pads of the fingers it feels like I have more power.

My fingers (not thumb) are all around 0.5-1cm apart, which means they aren't touching, but they aren't stretching uncomfortably. They're just in a comfortable position.

Now when I hold my arm out, holding the stick, with my the pads of my four fingers facing the ceiling, I can position the stick maybe about 45 degrees below the horizontal without moving my wrist hardly at all. Then, I can pivot the stick on my thumb all the way the other way so it's flat/ horizontal in the other direction. I can bounce it around by whacking it with my fingers too.

That seems like a pretty good range of movement using entirely my fingers to pivot the stick, so I think that must be right? My hand doesn't look quite like yours in the picture, but maybe it's because your fingers are long. I can hold it like you, but it feels more comfortable when it rests in the joints of my finger instead of up farther like in your picture.

Assuming that is right, what should the position of my hand be when I'm actually playing? Should the back of my hand be facing the ceiling, or should it be facing sideways? Where should the 'butt' of the stick be bouncing, in the air, or against my palm/wrist?

Anyway, it's hard to describe all that in words, but I'm trying to make sure I don't spend all my time practicing the wrong way and learning some bad habits.

After all this fancy finger work I've been doing for the last hour, I think I've almost mastered that stick spin that drummers always do lol. I've been spinning it around with one hand and typing with the other hand.

[anwiii]

no pictures please....VIDEO.....let's see what ya got....then bani can critique. typing with one hand while twirling with the other? that's insane. that would be too much of a distraction for me. i am known to type with one hand and hold my cigarette in the other though

[Baniboy]

From what I read your technique is somewhat as I described to you, but remember to not wrap your index finger around the stick and squeeze(pay attention to that when you're playing). Yes, it's a little hard on your muscles and focus first, but when it all goes to muscle memory so you can do that automatically on the background when you play. Another thing is the physical limitations of the wrist when playing fast. I can't play with wrists when the tempo is over 130 while playing x16.

As for keeping the stick above/below/on the joint, to what feels more comfortable, just make sure you can still have your little finger below the stick. I prefer not to keep below when playing because it hurts when I hit the accent notes(my index finger's joints). Another thing is that after you've played for a while, your brains I guess automatically move the stick around to fit the way you're playing. For example, keeping it on the fingertips when hitting ghost notes and really holding the stick tight above your joints when hitting the drums hard. But this comes with experience.

Regarding how you should have your wrists, it depends on the style. The way I'm holding in the picture is american, french grip(the fastest) has it's own ways(kind of side ways) while german is more powerful. American is something in between. Position as you like, just make sure that the stick's "path" is from up to down, not sideways too.

One tip, try to have more stamina than power. The power will come over time, but stamina and accuracy will come when you do those 5-20 minutes long rudiment workouts with metronome.
Also since I started talking about the rudiments, you should also try double stroke roll and paradidle since you seem to have become more comfortable with the grip.

And yes pics or videos as anwiii mentioned would be good.

Quote

then bani can critique

I don't critique, I guide/give advice And sorry for not replying to your last post, I'm quite busy right now

Edited by Baniboy, 14 January 2010 - 03:46 PM.

[rob86]

Thanks for your advice! I noticed something while watching Buddy Rich videos (Man, that guy is inspiring!) and it's that he switches between matched grip and traditional grip sometimes during the same solo. Is there a good reason for why he does this? He's obviously a master with both methods, but he chooses to use both. Does the matched grip give him more oomph or something? I don't know, but when he uses matched grip his songs are pretty 'hard rock' sounding.. maybe it's just a coincidence.

By the way, do you know of any good drum parts in songs to learn? I find the standard rock drumming a bit simple and repetitive, but jazz or anything that is more challenging and pretty interesting. You seem to like jazz rhythms, so maybe there's a song you enjoy playing to that I would like too? Maybe? Or any song it doesn't have to be jazz.. but something good!

[Baniboy]

rob86, on Jan 16 2010, 07:40 AM, said:

Thanks for your advice! I noticed something while watching Buddy Rich videos (Man, that guy is inspiring!) and it's that he switches between matched grip and traditional grip sometimes during the same solo. Is there a good reason for why he does this? He's obviously a master with both methods, but he chooses to use both. Does the matched grip give him more oomph or something? I don't know, but when he uses matched grip his songs are pretty 'hard rock' sounding.. maybe it's just a coincidence.

By the way, do you know of any good drum parts in songs to learn? I find the standard rock drumming a bit simple and repetitive, but jazz or anything that is more challenging and pretty interesting. You seem to like jazz rhythms, so maybe there's a song you enjoy playing to that I would like too? Maybe? Or any song it doesn't have to be jazz.. but something good!

Both techniques have their own advantages and disadvantages. The traditional grip may be used to produce a different kind of sound. Another thing is that it may be just tradition, showing off or small adjustments to the mechanics(AKA bounce, power, speed etc.) of playing. I personally think that you may have a more dynamic range between silent and loud with the traditional grip although learning how to properly hit the accents on the traditional grip might take a little longer while you just "hammer" with the match grip. Why many jazz drummers use it might be because you have to keep your right hand on the cymbal/ride and then left is free to do anything. Then you can add all kinds of nice things with the left hand and being capable of really silent notes is something you need if you want to do complex stuff. Another reason might simply be comfort, you might feel more comfortable with the match grip in some styles, traditional grip in some styles, etc. It is completely up to the person who plays, both styles are just as good in general if you know how and when to use them. Left hand is often weaker, so maybe they use that to boost up their left hand(practicing with that might be a little more interesting so one might practice harder to master it and strengthen their lefty in the same time). Maybe he does get more mph, maybe he gets more comfort or a better range between loud and silent.

Yes, standard rock drumming is kind of boring which is mainly because many rock guitar players/singers expect everyone else to fill in the holes while they do their awesome solo/scream to hide the high notes they can't reach() and then after that the song is over... No time for drummers! Anyway, I'm in a band and we mainly play rock-style(not the modern garbage, but the old garbage ) stuff and I refuse to just be the background-man So I sometimes play longer and complex fills/small solos in songs.

For songs you should start with, learn the shuffle beat(it's a triol beat, very interesting) and then try to play "highway chile" by Jimmy Hendrix without fills(just the beat) and a little slowed down tempo. Then you should also learn what you do with the ride in a jazz song(the triol-styled one) and then try playing "Moanin'" by Art Blakey, again without fills (and you don't have to slow down much if at all). I suggest you try jazz songs where the main leader is the saxophone or piano and the drummer is playing simple stuff. My favorite thing about jazz, you don't need singers (haha ). Not that I dislike singers or anything, but I like focusing on drum/guitar/piano/saxophone notes and not the lyrics. It all depends on the style tho, you can't pretty much focus on anything else than the lyrics in a pop song Enjoy what each style/song has to offer.
As something interesting and challenging to try, i suggest reggae! Fun and hard to play because the placing of the bass is so odd, at least in old reggae, in the modern ones the bass drum is all over(it's alright, but just makes it less challenging). Bossanova and other latin beats and samba are always challenging and a lot of fun although I wouldn't listen to something like that when I just want to listen to music. But playing those is really fun! Try funk, too! Funk pretty much is like rock except that it's funky and you get to *misplace* the hi-hat accents in those funky parts of the beat. Learn as many styles as you can!

[rob86]

Master Bani I am at one with the sticks, I feel the force. Seriously though, I figured out the whole finger flicking thing. I was doing it wrong before but now it seems to make more sense. I guess I was just trying too hard before because when I just relaxed and played along to the radio (and some fast songs) my fingers just starting flicking to keep up and it became pretty obvious it's a lot easier to understand than it sounds. Now that I'm conscious of the bounce, I can control it more and and my playing improved quite a bit.

My right hand is naturally doing great, it's got the whole loose grip - no bounce suffocation thing sorted out, but my left hand needs a lot more work. Not surprisingly, as I've been too lazy to do much serious rudiment practicing yet. I can still play stuff, but my left hand is sloppier and weak when I slow down or do rolls.

I've been playing some jazzy shuffle stuff a lot. Since I play a lot of blues guitar, the whole shuffle beat came pretty easy. I'll download that Art Blakey song and try it out. Jazz songs are pretty fun to play to. Sometimes they're kind of difficult for me, since I don't really know what I'm supposed to be playing but I like how the drums are a bit more busy in a way that's not just noise. I like banging on cymbals as much as anyone, but jazz seems more musical.

I'm a big fan of old roots reggae (well, a long with a dozen other genres) so it'd be interesting to learn about the drumming for that style. Looks like I might finally figure out what "One Drop" is supposed to mean. Irie, mon.

I'll definitely look into the latin styles even though like you I don't listen to much latin music. Santana's pretty good though. I like his guitar playing,
guess I'll have to pay attention to his percussionists now.

There are a couple of funk tracks on my drum kit, and one of them I really had fun playing to. It was one of my favourites, surprisingly. I've hardly ever listened to funk music before but it was cool improvising some funky beats to go with it.