16 replies to this topic

[rob86]

I realize that no single person should be the source of all instrument learning, I'm learning from more than one place and putting all the knowledge together. I also understand the value of practice and doing things right - putting some effort into it. It's not all fun and games, being a skilled musician takes some dedicated practicing and not just jamming. I play guitar, I'm used to the drudgery that is scale practicing to a metronome.

Anyway, I appreciate Bani's teaching, it's good to have some kind of guidance.

An interesting thing to add to the discussion, is that it's surprising what can come out of someone developing their own technique and style. One guy comes to mind, Canadian rocker Jeff Healey, who developed his own technique because of his blindness. He's famous for his ballads, but I prefer his more raw blues-rock stuff. Check out a youtube video to see his unique style. He had nobody to teach him, and couldn't see pictures, so he just did what felt right to him. He wasn't just a good guitarist for a blind guy, he was a great guitarist in general. It's amazing how someone can get so good doing something completely different. I didn't know anything about him until he died a few years ago and I looked him up to see why his death was such big news.

[rob86]

I think I'm getting the hang of the method you taught, but it's hard to be sure. I might take a picture of my hand if I find my camera, but for now here's a description of what I'm doing. I have my thumb on one side of the stick, and the other four fingers on the other side, so all my fingers are touching the stick. Sometimes my fingers are touching it in the padded part of the finger, other times it slips down to the joint area (the joint nearest the fingertip) and rests in there. I'm not sure which is better, but when it's in that joint as opposed to on the pads of the fingers it feels like I have more power.

My fingers (not thumb) are all around 0.5-1cm apart, which means they aren't touching, but they aren't stretching uncomfortably. They're just in a comfortable position.

Now when I hold my arm out, holding the stick, with my the pads of my four fingers facing the ceiling, I can position the stick maybe about 45 degrees below the horizontal without moving my wrist hardly at all. Then, I can pivot the stick on my thumb all the way the other way so it's flat/ horizontal in the other direction. I can bounce it around by whacking it with my fingers too.

That seems like a pretty good range of movement using entirely my fingers to pivot the stick, so I think that must be right? My hand doesn't look quite like yours in the picture, but maybe it's because your fingers are long. I can hold it like you, but it feels more comfortable when it rests in the joints of my finger instead of up farther like in your picture.

Assuming that is right, what should the position of my hand be when I'm actually playing? Should the back of my hand be facing the ceiling, or should it be facing sideways? Where should the 'butt' of the stick be bouncing, in the air, or against my palm/wrist?

Anyway, it's hard to describe all that in words, but I'm trying to make sure I don't spend all my time practicing the wrong way and learning some bad habits.

After all this fancy finger work I've been doing for the last hour, I think I've almost mastered that stick spin that drummers always do lol. I've been spinning it around with one hand and typing with the other hand.

[anwiii]

no pictures please....VIDEO.....let's see what ya got....then bani can critique. typing with one hand while twirling with the other? that's insane. that would be too much of a distraction for me. i am known to type with one hand and hold my cigarette in the other though

[Baniboy]

From what I read your technique is somewhat as I described to you, but remember to not wrap your index finger around the stick and squeeze(pay attention to that when you're playing). Yes, it's a little hard on your muscles and focus first, but when it all goes to muscle memory so you can do that automatically on the background when you play. Another thing is the physical limitations of the wrist when playing fast. I can't play with wrists when the tempo is over 130 while playing x16.

As for keeping the stick above/below/on the joint, to what feels more comfortable, just make sure you can still have your little finger below the stick. I prefer not to keep below when playing because it hurts when I hit the accent notes(my index finger's joints). Another thing is that after you've played for a while, your brains I guess automatically move the stick around to fit the way you're playing. For example, keeping it on the fingertips when hitting ghost notes and really holding the stick tight above your joints when hitting the drums hard. But this comes with experience.

Regarding how you should have your wrists, it depends on the style. The way I'm holding in the picture is american, french grip(the fastest) has it's own ways(kind of side ways) while german is more powerful. American is something in between. Position as you like, just make sure that the stick's "path" is from up to down, not sideways too.

One tip, try to have more stamina than power. The power will come over time, but stamina and accuracy will come when you do those 5-20 minutes long rudiment workouts with metronome.
Also since I started talking about the rudiments, you should also try double stroke roll and paradidle since you seem to have become more comfortable with the grip.

And yes pics or videos as anwiii mentioned would be good.

Quote

then bani can critique

I don't critique, I guide/give advice And sorry for not replying to your last post, I'm quite busy right now

Edited by Baniboy, 14 January 2010 - 03:46 PM.

[rob86]

Thanks for your advice! I noticed something while watching Buddy Rich videos (Man, that guy is inspiring!) and it's that he switches between matched grip and traditional grip sometimes during the same solo. Is there a good reason for why he does this? He's obviously a master with both methods, but he chooses to use both. Does the matched grip give him more oomph or something? I don't know, but when he uses matched grip his songs are pretty 'hard rock' sounding.. maybe it's just a coincidence.

By the way, do you know of any good drum parts in songs to learn? I find the standard rock drumming a bit simple and repetitive, but jazz or anything that is more challenging and pretty interesting. You seem to like jazz rhythms, so maybe there's a song you enjoy playing to that I would like too? Maybe? Or any song it doesn't have to be jazz.. but something good!

[Baniboy]

rob86, on Jan 16 2010, 07:40 AM, said:

Thanks for your advice! I noticed something while watching Buddy Rich videos (Man, that guy is inspiring!) and it's that he switches between matched grip and traditional grip sometimes during the same solo. Is there a good reason for why he does this? He's obviously a master with both methods, but he chooses to use both. Does the matched grip give him more oomph or something? I don't know, but when he uses matched grip his songs are pretty 'hard rock' sounding.. maybe it's just a coincidence.

By the way, do you know of any good drum parts in songs to learn? I find the standard rock drumming a bit simple and repetitive, but jazz or anything that is more challenging and pretty interesting. You seem to like jazz rhythms, so maybe there's a song you enjoy playing to that I would like too? Maybe? Or any song it doesn't have to be jazz.. but something good!

Both techniques have their own advantages and disadvantages. The traditional grip may be used to produce a different kind of sound. Another thing is that it may be just tradition, showing off or small adjustments to the mechanics(AKA bounce, power, speed etc.) of playing. I personally think that you may have a more dynamic range between silent and loud with the traditional grip although learning how to properly hit the accents on the traditional grip might take a little longer while you just "hammer" with the match grip. Why many jazz drummers use it might be because you have to keep your right hand on the cymbal/ride and then left is free to do anything. Then you can add all kinds of nice things with the left hand and being capable of really silent notes is something you need if you want to do complex stuff. Another reason might simply be comfort, you might feel more comfortable with the match grip in some styles, traditional grip in some styles, etc. It is completely up to the person who plays, both styles are just as good in general if you know how and when to use them. Left hand is often weaker, so maybe they use that to boost up their left hand(practicing with that might be a little more interesting so one might practice harder to master it and strengthen their lefty in the same time). Maybe he does get more mph, maybe he gets more comfort or a better range between loud and silent.

Yes, standard rock drumming is kind of boring which is mainly because many rock guitar players/singers expect everyone else to fill in the holes while they do their awesome solo/scream to hide the high notes they can't reach() and then after that the song is over... No time for drummers! Anyway, I'm in a band and we mainly play rock-style(not the modern garbage, but the old garbage ) stuff and I refuse to just be the background-man So I sometimes play longer and complex fills/small solos in songs.

For songs you should start with, learn the shuffle beat(it's a triol beat, very interesting) and then try to play "highway chile" by Jimmy Hendrix without fills(just the beat) and a little slowed down tempo. Then you should also learn what you do with the ride in a jazz song(the triol-styled one) and then try playing "Moanin'" by Art Blakey, again without fills (and you don't have to slow down much if at all). I suggest you try jazz songs where the main leader is the saxophone or piano and the drummer is playing simple stuff. My favorite thing about jazz, you don't need singers (haha ). Not that I dislike singers or anything, but I like focusing on drum/guitar/piano/saxophone notes and not the lyrics. It all depends on the style tho, you can't pretty much focus on anything else than the lyrics in a pop song Enjoy what each style/song has to offer.
As something interesting and challenging to try, i suggest reggae! Fun and hard to play because the placing of the bass is so odd, at least in old reggae, in the modern ones the bass drum is all over(it's alright, but just makes it less challenging). Bossanova and other latin beats and samba are always challenging and a lot of fun although I wouldn't listen to something like that when I just want to listen to music. But playing those is really fun! Try funk, too! Funk pretty much is like rock except that it's funky and you get to *misplace* the hi-hat accents in those funky parts of the beat. Learn as many styles as you can!

[rob86]

Master Bani I am at one with the sticks, I feel the force. Seriously though, I figured out the whole finger flicking thing. I was doing it wrong before but now it seems to make more sense. I guess I was just trying too hard before because when I just relaxed and played along to the radio (and some fast songs) my fingers just starting flicking to keep up and it became pretty obvious it's a lot easier to understand than it sounds. Now that I'm conscious of the bounce, I can control it more and and my playing improved quite a bit.

My right hand is naturally doing great, it's got the whole loose grip - no bounce suffocation thing sorted out, but my left hand needs a lot more work. Not surprisingly, as I've been too lazy to do much serious rudiment practicing yet. I can still play stuff, but my left hand is sloppier and weak when I slow down or do rolls.

I've been playing some jazzy shuffle stuff a lot. Since I play a lot of blues guitar, the whole shuffle beat came pretty easy. I'll download that Art Blakey song and try it out. Jazz songs are pretty fun to play to. Sometimes they're kind of difficult for me, since I don't really know what I'm supposed to be playing but I like how the drums are a bit more busy in a way that's not just noise. I like banging on cymbals as much as anyone, but jazz seems more musical.

I'm a big fan of old roots reggae (well, a long with a dozen other genres) so it'd be interesting to learn about the drumming for that style. Looks like I might finally figure out what "One Drop" is supposed to mean. Irie, mon.

I'll definitely look into the latin styles even though like you I don't listen to much latin music. Santana's pretty good though. I like his guitar playing,
guess I'll have to pay attention to his percussionists now.

There are a couple of funk tracks on my drum kit, and one of them I really had fun playing to. It was one of my favourites, surprisingly. I've hardly ever listened to funk music before but it was cool improvising some funky beats to go with it.