15 replies to this topic

[Nameless_]

Hello people. I guess it comes to a point where I feel guilty about using other people's coding and resources (even if it is open source), and I would like to dwell into the world of hacking, programming and making bots. NOT for illegal reasons, but just merely for the sake of education. It would be great to know that I did a working bot or a program or hacked into something (legal, maybe ethical hacking?) that I did myself with no help from others.

I mean, look at my website. It's full of PHP, html, CSS... and lots of things that I only did a bit to enhance and change, but the core isn't made by me. And I would like to be an expert in that area and actually know how to script properly. I know that there are a lot of good programmers in this forum, and therefore, I am crying for help.

(Lots of help threads from me these days, huh?)

I think I should start with making a simple bot. Maybe a autoresponse thing on Chat or something like that. You put in an input and you get something out. Or I don't know.

The problem with starting is that you don't know where to start. All the hackers and programmers are nowhere in between. They are either experts, or total noobs like me. Or cheaters that as experts to help them.

And I just want to have more knowledge on this topic. Life is an forever learning process and this is something I find very useful. So... where do I start?

Cheers

[anwiii]

i would suggest you start doing your own research. the information is out there for anything you want to know. you just have to go out and find it. research. google the keywords you are looking for.

i started learning what you are asking now when i was about 15. i was self taught like most others. simplest way would be to look at code that was already written and study it and figure out what does what. there are also tuts on anything you want to learn. it takes years....and even then you will have never mastered anything as there is so much to learn. also know that whatever you learn has probably already been learned and done by others.

now, if you can be more specific in what you want to learn and do, maybe i as well can be more specific to get you started....but thinking about the big picture leaves me with a headache and i know talking about the big picture will just leave you more confused. so please be specific. start with something small and specific people can guide to to.

always my famous words for nameless... "keep it simple" then grow from there....

[rvalkass]

If you've never programmed before then I strongly recommend getting a good book from your local library/bookshop that will teach you the basic ideas behind programming and the basics of the particular programming language the book deals with. The reason I recommend going and buying the book in person rather than online is that everyone learns in different ways, and it is very hard to tell when ordering a book from an online shop whether the tone and style of the text will be helpful to you. There is nothing worse than picking up a textbook written in a style that just doesn't work for you, and assuming you can't go near that topic ever again. Look at different books, see how each one teaches - do they have example code? exercises for you to do? are there answers to those exercises? - and also check how they start out - read the first few pages and check it starts at the right level for you.

There are some notes from my University which may be of use to you. They deal with programming in C from a beginners perspective (ie. no prior programming knowledge) using XCode on the Mac. As I believe you use a Mac, this should make this information extra useful for you.

[Nameless_]

anwiii, on Jan 13 2010, 06:53 PM, said:

i would suggest you start doing your own research. the information is out there for anything you want to know. you just have to go out and find it. research. google the keywords you are looking for.

i started learning what you are asking now when i was about 15. i was self taught like most others. simplest way would be to look at code that was already written and study it and figure out what does what. there are also tuts on anything you want to learn. it takes years....and even then you will have never mastered anything as there is so much to learn. also know that whatever you learn has probably already been learned and done by others.

now, if you can be more specific in what you want to learn and do, maybe i as well can be more specific to get you started....but thinking about the big picture leaves me with a headache and i know talking about the big picture will just leave you more confused. so please be specific. start with something small and specific people can guide to to.

always my famous words for nameless... "keep it simple" then grow from there....

Yes, that means I was a few years ahead of you when I tried to start dabbling in that, but I guess I'm going serious from now on... which makes me... a few days earlier than you. But anyway. OK. I will start with hacking, perhaps? As well as creating simple bots. Like those bots in IRC channels or something like that.

After that, I'll work on decaptha-ing and probably by then I will be pro. And I'll keep it simple then grow from there. I guess the easiest way is to join hacking and building communities (I know one that's rather famous... I went in and got past two levels of hacking and then I failed. )

But thanks. I really want to work on this.

rvalkass, on Jan 13 2010, 09:00 PM, said:

If you've never programmed before then I strongly recommend getting a good book from your local library/bookshop that will teach you the basic ideas behind programming and the basics of the particular programming language the book deals with. The reason I recommend going and buying the book in person rather than online is that everyone learns in different ways, and it is very hard to tell when ordering a book from an online shop whether the tone and style of the text will be helpful to you. There is nothing worse than picking up a textbook written in a style that just doesn't work for you, and assuming you can't go near that topic ever again. Look at different books, see how each one teaches - do they have example code? exercises for you to do? are there answers to those exercises? - and also check how they start out - read the first few pages and check it starts at the right level for you.

There are some notes from my University which may be of use to you. They deal with programming in C from a beginners perspective (ie. no prior programming knowledge) using XCode on the Mac. As I believe you use a Mac, this should make this information extra useful for you.

hmm... I did try. I know that Python is one of the best programming languages out there, but getting a book from my library on Python? They are all very complicated and they don't even tell you what Python is. I don't understand though. For some reason, you have to "download" Python. I don't understand that. I mean, as it is a programming language, should you just script it yourself? Why do you have to download it?

Also, can someone tell me the difference between scripting languages? I know that HTML is for website, and I think that XML is the more secure form of HTML, while CSS gives style and form.

Now... I don't really understand the difference between PHP and Javascript/Java.

I mean, for html, you only have to write this (yes, this is the first time I have ever used code tags):

<html>
<body>
<p> Hello World! (Or whatever. I don't know why they always use "Hello World!". It's really weird.
</p>
</body>
</html>

While for PHP, it's so weird. You give the same output, but it is much more complicated. I mean, what's the point?

 <html>
 <body>
 <?php
 echo "Hello Trap17";
 ?>
 </body>
 </html>

And that's the difference. I don't know why you have to bother with php and things like that when HTML does the job. But anyway... I don't know where to start. I don't think there are beginner books on programming. Unless I go to a uni. But I'm too young. And I have no interest in website and programming for my future career. And now it's a bit too long. I want to continue writing, but I'll wait until someone comes along and post a reply first.

(I just don't want to use other people's scripts without knowing how to make my own).

[Baniboy]

Quote

Also, can someone tell me the difference between scripting languages? I know that HTML is for website, and I think that XML is the more secure form of HTML, while CSS gives style and form.

Now... I don't really understand the difference between PHP and Javascript/Java.

I mean, for html, you only have to write this (yes, this is the first time I have ever used code tags):

HTML and XML aren't scripting languages, but markup languages. CSS also isn't scripting.

PHP is server side scripting/programming. Javascript is executed in the browser, Java can be used to do both. PHP is easier to use. Java can be used to make games like Runescape, or those multiplayer pool/chess games you can play in your browser. Java can also be used for bank accounts to have a secure connection and stuff. And I'm talking about Java on the web, as a desktop application Java is just another programming language by which you can write programs such as Azureus/Vuze + it needs compiling.
Javascript is like a simplified version running in the browser without accessing database and stuff, that's php's job.

And HTML doesn't do the job, using HTML to make your content on the pages is pretty lame. You use databases for that. And that actually meant what it was, you use databases, Nameless! You're using drupal, which uses PHP and MySQL if I'm not terribly mistaken.

[mahesh2k]

Quote

While for PHP, it's so weird. You give the same output, but it is much more complicated. I mean, what's the point?

Point is about dynamic approach. HTML files can be dynamically processed with database queries using PHP. While with HTML you can't do this. (wait, HTML 5 is not out yet, so let's not bring that one here for that db support). So PHP is useful if you want dynamic website. Even for bots capturing some random data from site can use asp/php/jsp for this dynamic approach.

HTML/CSS are very easy to learn. And even if you forget the basics later you can cover these two up in 1-2 hours. But for PHP/ASP practice and demo projects are must and you need to update yourself as well.

[truefusion]

Nameless_, on Jan 13 2010, 05:59 AM, said:

I know that Python is one of the best programming languages out there, but getting a book from my library on Python? They are all very complicated and they don't even tell you what Python is. I don't understand though. For some reason, you have to "download" Python. I don't understand that. I mean, as it is a programming language, should you just script it yourself? Why do you have to download it?

Python has a simple syntax, but that doesn't mean that it isn't complicated. Programming and scripting languages will always have their own learning curves; they only seem complicated now because you are ignorant. Once you learn how to write in either Python, PHP, JavaScript, or similar, all the other similar languages will become easier to learn.

Why do you need to download these languages? You don't download the language, you download the interpreter/compiler. Text files don't execute themselves: they have to be translated (into machine code) before they can do anything useful. Anyone can write Python or any other scripting and programming language in a text editor, but that doesn't mean what they write automatically becomes practical (useful).

You should indeed start with scripting languages (e.g. PHP, Python, Ruby, et cetera) first and avoid languages like Java, C, C++, C# and similar (which aren't scripting languages—though Java and C# can be argued to be a more advanced kind of scripting language), at least until you have the basics down. Basics include but is not limited to: learning the syntax, learning what a variable is, knowing about loop conditions, conditional statements, static and dynamic typing, et cetera. The more you learn the more you'll understand why i recommend scripting languages first. Also, if you are going to learn PHP, especially for web development, you should take the time to learn XHTML and CSS before PHP.

By the way, the kind of things you seek to do is a bit too complicated now (i.e. bots, hacking, et cetera) if you don't know any languages. We could help out to the best of our knowledge, but if you don't know any languages, you won't have any idea on how to get it started, and any code we provide may confuse you. If you do know something, however, i can't tell from the example code you have provided, as those things can be easily copied and pasted.

[Nameless_]

OK... let me clarify a few things...

Number one. HTML and XML are "markup" languages. OK... I have heard of that. What does it mean? I know that PHP is much more dynamic, and enables more things, as well as going into "databases"... something that I need to learn more on.

Number Two. OK. I'll tell you what I know. I know HTML, XML, simple CSS and simple PHP. I mean, I know the basics, but if you told me to make them from scratch (make, because I don't know the other world for script when it's not scripting), I would be hopeless. I would also be hopeless if you told me to edit one big text file that is right in front of me.

Number Three. OK. So I download things, and that is an interpreter. Got it. That's one thing down.

Number Four. I need to know the difference between languages. So... HTML and XML, markup - whatever that is. PHP, Javascript is on another level. More dynamic? Allows simple funtions... And then it goes to Java, Python... into hacking and bots and stuff.... and then its C++, C#, C... I don't even know what that is. Probably building artificial intelligence of computers or something bizarre like that... am I right?

Number five. ARRRRRGHH!!!!! I'm going crazy and crazy and crazy now. I need to get this right.
OK. SO... I'll start with Python?

[rob86]

Python is a good place to start programming, but I don't know how interesting your bot project would be if you did it on python. IRC is the best place to work with bots, you can program in the easy to learn mIRC scripting language (assuming you have some way to run mIRC, not sure if it works on Mac). The mIRC scripting language is quite powerful and you'll find it easier to learn than python but, it's not a full fledged language. It's still powerful considering what it is, It was the first language I learned and I made quite a bit of stuff with it. Advanced (well I thought so) chat bots, audio player, games, email sender, email downloader, a web server, math equation solvers and graphs, and a whole bunch of stuff. It's what got me into programming. Before I even began learning python, mIRC surprisingly filled almost all of my programming needs. The obvious problem with mIRC is that you're stuck to using it on mIRC, and when you get tired of IRC, your knowledge will be wasted since you won't be using it again. mIRC scripting is a good place to begin learning programming concepts like variables and stuff because it has a great easy-to read newbie friendly help file that isn't nearly as intimidating as Pythons horrifying amount of documentation. You can actually master mIRC scripting and move on, unlike other languages, which seem to be never ending in the amount of stuff they can do. Plus, IRC is THE best environment to work on a bot if that's what you want to do, because you want your bot to actually interact with people. It makes sense that you'd be motivated to make a chat bot on an actual chatroom.

You can also use an eggdrop bot and learn to program TCL. Eggdrops are advanced pre-made bots, but people program 'scripts' for them in the TCL language, which are like addons. These can be games or things to check the weather, or say the date, whatever. TCL is a 'real' language, and means it's pretty confusing. I'm not sure I'd recommed this, since the similar Python is generally more popular than TCL ( I think ) but lettnig you know that it's an option. They're fun things to play with, I was really addicted to managing an eggdrop bot network years ago and making things for them.

If you just want to learn programming in general, and you only said Bot because you didn't know what else to make, well I think Python is the best. I don't have much experience programming, but Python seems to pretty good and easy (compared to c++.. it's just a more complicated language). It can do a lot more than mIRC for sure. I enjoy using Python. Plus, I can imagine learning Python is actually going to be a useful skill. Python was even used to make parts of big games like Civilization IV. mIRC on the other hand, is mostly limited to newbies and/or chat addicts. You could forget the bot idea and make something else.

And chat bots aren't really hard to make, I mean they CAN be, but they can be as simple or advanced as you want. If you want it to reply to a hello on mIRC, it's like this.

on *:TEXT:#Chatroom:*Hello*: { msg $chan Hello there, welcome! }

or..

on *:TEXT:#Chatroom:*:{
if Hello isin $1- { msg $chan Hey! }
elseif Bye isin $1- { msg $chan Bye! }

Of course, as you get more adept, you'll find bettr ways to do it, but it can be that simple. That might not be completely right, it's been a while since I used mIRC. It's different than Python for example because it really integrates with what happens on an IRC server.

I used to be an mIRC scripting expert, and I find myself wishing I spent my time programming in something more useful like Python instead because I outgrew mIRC. But then again, mIRC got me interested in programming in a gentle way without the intimidation of reading Python books and lessons. So I don't know, mIRC scripting, python, whatever, maybe learn them all, I think half the people on here know 100 languages anyway

[anwiii]

i wouldn't start with python.

i do agree with truefusion that you should learn css(and even html) before learning php.

but for all practical purposes for you who wants to understand a language and create something that you can be proud of, no matter how basic it is, try BASIC. it's as basic as it sounds. still fun to program in and the least complicated in my opinion.

i am lost in todays time. i learned basic and visual basic, cobol, pascal and c, c+ and fortran. i quit trying to learn the languages. it just took up way too much of my time. now, i know html, am lost with css, and know a little php. that is it. i dabbled with python a little but decided it took up way too much of my time since i had better things to do

now you WILL need a complier for some of the languages. you just input your source code in to the complier and it compiles your source in it a lower level language that can also be executed. there are also translators in which you don't need a compiler....but i am unfamiliar with them.

which brings me to my last suggestion other than basic. assembly my be a good language to understand as will...you are actually getting more to the core of how things work. where binary is in it's simplest form of just 1's and 0's.

so i would start with basic and assembly. see if that at all interests you....if not, you should really read up on what all the languages have to offer for your practical needs in learning. back in the day, we had to pay for the compliers. i think there are free ones floating around now. i know when i dabbled in python, i used a free one.

but to start to learn to create something from scratch and understand it, start with basic. although outdated now and limited, it's still not really a bad language to start learning from. i would also combine that with learning assembly if you was to learn a little software hacking skills as you mentioned