19 replies to this topic

[Gammmae105]

Well, in our quickly evolving world of technology, there's this wonderful thing called the touch screen. Not just one type, but many types.

For example: There's the touchscreen on the iPhone, which ONLY works with your outer-skin, and there's the other touch screen type(the NDS(Nintendo DS)) where you have to put force.

So this for me raises a question.

Why is it that the iPhone is finger-sensitive and the NDS is pressure sensitive? Can one or the other really call itself a "touch-screen"? Just wanted to know what you guys thought.
In my opinion, the iPhone should have both touchscreen capabilities(finger and pressure-sensitivity). What do you guys think?

[rvalkass]

It's caused by differences in the mechanisms used to detect where your fingers are. The system used on the Nintendo DS (and other systems that use a stylus and register only one point on the screen at a time) work using a grid of cells on a top and bottom layer. When you push the layers together with the stylus, this causes a measurable change in current, and the system can work out which cell you're pushing on, and therefore where you're trying to click on screen. This system needs quite considerable pressure sometimes to get it to work (as many frustrated touch-screen users can confirm) and can only detect one point on the screen at a time.

The system Apple and most other new devices use is a projected capacitive system. The screen comprises a fine grid of cells, each with a voltage across them, and therefore an electric field. Touching the screen (or even just getting close to it) causes a change in the capacitance measured by the device across the screen (as the human body is capacitive, and hence why a plastic stylus usually doesn't work). With this system you can detect multiple points on the screen at once, but it's much more expensive to implement. You also get fingerprints all over your screen

[mandla]

I think i may be wrong but its worth mentioning i think cause i believe theres a high chance im right. I think theres more to touch screens than just the two. I think theres touch sensitive similar to Ipod touch / Iphones/ Ipads then you have the Touch pressure sensitive which work from pressure hence you can use a stylus. I think theres also the heat sensitive touch. Cause there are some phones which say touch screen but on a cold day if fingers are freezing they wont respond you got to warm up to a certian degree or rather your fingers need to warm up to a certain degree. I know this was the case with the first touch screen phones in UK.

Obviously they did not advertise this fact but people started to have those problems in with their phones. They thought the phones had a bug but it was discovered that when you were outside for long and your hand froze up your phone would stop responding or need you to hold the keeys longer for them to sense. But people are not that patient they will only start pressing the screen harder and harder in frustration. But funny thing was when you went to the phone shop to complain obviously you' queue up for few minutes and most people obviously will be rubbing their hands together and blowing on them to keep warm also the air conditioning plays its part annd by the time you get to the customer service desk and complain, you take out your phone try showing the assitant what you mean and the phone would be working. perfectly. Obviously you'd feel awkward cause you look like retard which I guess in the first few times that shop would encounter the complaint the shop assistants would think you were bullsh*tting but ater a while they realised how can shed loads of people all have that complain but once in the shop the phone worked and the problem only happened in winter on really cold days. So they put it down to the screens being heated skin sensitive.

I dont know if this is only a variation of the second type of touchscreen or a whole new touch screen on its own right. Anyonwe know?

[k_nitin_r]

Touch screen are commercially available in two varieties: capacitive and resistive. Capacitive touch screens can be found on devices such as the Apple iPhone, the Apple iPod Touch, and the Apple iPad. Capacitive touch screens require people to use their hands to interact with the device while resistive touch screens can accept input from touching with fingers, or using a stylus. Some users prefer to use a stylus for accuracy and therefore prefer resistive touch screens over capacitive touch screens, while others prefer to have the novelty of an iPhone like touch screen that supports gestures and multi touch.

Multi touch screens too have their capabilities - some of them only support two points of touch and refer to them as multi-touch devices, however others like the ten-point 3M multi touch monitor extend far beyond the capabilities of a basic multi touch screen.

[Baniboy]

@nitin: Resistive screens do support gestures.

Anyway, it's a matter of preference. I personally kind of feel like I don't have enough control over the interface when my every random touch on the screen is registered as a command. While most old resistive screens are not responsive enough and may annoy the user (= Nokia Symbian smartphones, except X6 which has a capacitive), there are some exceptions. You kind of get used to how much you have to apply pressure to get it registered. Mostly I think the most user-friendly devices (= iphone and such) do have a finger-friendly interface, so you don't need to worry. But with a resistive you can press accurately with fingers if you know how to apply the pressure with the tip of your finger, too, not only the stylus. And I don't like selecting text in capacitive screens, too inaccurate... Capacitive would however be the one I would recommend to "regular" users.

Second thing I would recommend considering is the resolution and size of the screen, the bigger and sharper, the better... well, at least to some extent.

Edited by Baniboy, 22 April 2010 - 07:36 PM.

[k_nitin_r]

Hi!

@Baniboy

Oh, I wasn't really aware of the gesture support on resistive screens apart from the basic scrolling. Is the gesture support on resistive screens limited to a single point gesture, or do they also have resistive screens that detect changes in the shape of the blob and effectively emulate the abilities of capacitive touch screens? I mean does it support things like pinching to zoom out, sliding a finger across the screen to move to the next page, and things of the sort? I've got a GPS device that supports scrolling by moving a finger across the screen and it's got a resistive screen; it does not, however, support zoom in and zoom out with gestures and instead it has an on-screen button to push.

You are right about the size and resolution of screens. GPS devices come with larger screens than the iPhone yet they cost so much less. Resistive screens are cheaper to manufacture when compared to capacitive screens but the feel of it just doesn't seem right, probably because I haven't been using any resistive screens extensively - touch to click just felt more natural than the push to touch since it's an on-screen button, and like you said, it's the one that regular users would prefer.

[rpgsearcherz]

I have experienced three types of touch-screens:

1) Touch-sensitive -- where you can touch it w/ your finger and still have an effect
2) Pressure-sensitive -- where you need to apply hard pressure or use an item (such as the DS)
3) Pen-enabled -- where you must use a pen that has a magnet built in

The differences alter the way they can be used. For example, for the touch sensitive (this would be the Iphone) you can easily scroll through with your finger. With the Nintendo DS you would want more precise control, to using the stylus is a good way to do this. And the pen-enabled is for people who do a lot of drawing and things like that. The pen usually has both a writing side and an eraser for turning a tablet into a true drawing device (like the Wacom tablet).

I personally prefer the Pen-enabled for most things, but for the phones I would go with touch-sensitive just because it is easier to use them without having to fumble around looking for a pen.

[TomCol]

So I'm guessing that you could use a stylus with the iPhone screens if the tip was filled with liquid similar to blood? Would that make the screen detect it?

[deadmad7]

TomCol, on 17 July 2010 - 12:04 PM, said:

So I'm guessing that you could use a stylus with the iPhone screens if the tip was filled with liquid similar to blood? Would that make the screen detect it?

No, it still won't detect it because the ONLY reason the iPhone can feel the touch is because of the heat and if you just 'fill' it with liquid like blood, it won't have a heat generated in it. But it doesn't only have to deal with the blood -- its mostly the 'friction' that gets generated when your fingers slide against the screen. The monitors on the iPhone/iTouch/iPad read the heat and they use it has a gesture. That's how it really works.

On second thought... how did that idea ever come to you? Why would you even want to use a blood inside a stick?

[rvalkass]

deadmad7, on 17 July 2010 - 12:27 PM, said:

No, it still won't detect it because the ONLY reason the iPhone can feel the touch is because of the heat and if you just 'fill' it with liquid like blood, it won't have a heat generated in it. But it doesn't only have to deal with the blood -- its mostly the 'friction' that gets generated when your fingers slide against the screen. The monitors on the iPhone/iTouch/iPad read the heat and they use it has a gesture. That's how it really works.

No, it still won't detect it because the ONLY reason the iPhone^TM can detect your finger is because it measures the change in capacitance. The screen is coated with a conductor, carrying a current. Your finger is also a conductor. When you touch the screen this causes a change in capacitance, which the phone detects and measures to determine exactly where you're poking the screen. Heat has nothing to do with the detection. That's how it really works.

[deadmad7]

rvalkass, on 17 July 2010 - 01:25 PM, said:

No, it still won't detect it because the ONLY reason the iPhone^TM can detect your finger is because it measures the change in capacitance. The screen is coated with a conductor, carrying a current. Your finger is also a conductor. When you touch the screen this causes a change in capacitance, which the phone detects and measures to determine exactly where you're poking the screen. Heat has nothing to do with the detection. That's how it really works.

rvalkass, on 17 July 2010 - 01:25 PM, said:

No, it still won't detect it because the ONLY reason the iPhone^TM can detect your finger is because it measures the change in capacitance. The screen is coated with a conductor, carrying a current. Your finger is also a conductor. When you touch the screen this causes a change in capacitance, which the phone detects and measures to determine exactly where you're poking the screen. Heat has nothing to do with the detection. That's how it really works.

Wow... I was pretty sure I got it right... that's what its 'advertised' as. But I did some research and I found out that you aren't totally right. This IS really how it works -

As we now know, all the touch screens use different systems, but the majority of them use resistive or capacitive because they are the best technology so far. In a capacitive touch screen, it relies on a 'electrical charge', so when you touch the screen a charge of electricity is detected by the capacitive layer. In a resistive touch screen, it uses the push effect of your finger to alter the circuit's resistance to pinpoint your location on the screen but one of the main problems with the capacitive and resistive touch screens is that when you touch on 2 or more places at the same time -- nothing happens or the system goes haywire. That's where your point defers. In the iPhone^TM you can use both of your fingers because it uses a Multiple Capacitive TouchScreen Interface, which is basically a grid coordinate system where the iPhone marks the place where it detected the touch and as a 'point' on a grid and uses that data to locate the exact place -- then it makes into a gesture which can move objects on the screen. That's how it really really works

[rpgsearcherz]

rvalkass, on 17 July 2010 - 01:25 PM, said:

No, it still won't detect it because the ONLY reason the iPhone^TM can detect your finger is because it measures the change in capacitance. The screen is coated with a conductor, carrying a current. Your finger is also a conductor. When you touch the screen this causes a change in capacitance, which the phone detects and measures to determine exactly where you're poking the screen. Heat has nothing to do with the detection. That's how it really works.

Very nice explanation there. I'm still a newbie at physics but that shows there is a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes. It's amazing what people are able to create; especially when most of us can hear how things work and still have no idea, lol.

[Gammmae105]

Well, I just looked it up again and found that the iphone has many layers of touch-screen technology. One detects electrical current, but I still don't know why they'd need a lot more layers. Wouldn't just 1 layer suffice?

[Maggot]

Gammmae105, on 15 August 2010 - 01:21 AM, said:

Well, I just looked it up again and found that the iphone has many layers of touch-screen technology. One detects electrical current, but I still don't know why they'd need a lot more layers. Wouldn't just 1 layer suffice?

Just think of it this way.... They people of apple are just much more smarter than the people at Nintendo lol....

Remember Steve jobbs who developed apple computers smoking pot... Much smarter....

Edited by Maggot, 15 August 2010 - 01:49 AM.

[deadmad7]

Maggot, on 15 August 2010 - 01:49 AM, said:

Just think of it this way.... They people of apple are just much more smarter than the people at Nintendo lol....

Remember Steve jobbs who developed apple computers smoking pot... Much smarter....

You can't really compare the programmers and designers at Nintendo to the likes of Apple. Nintendo is a gaming company and only specialized on it, unlike Apple. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Toyota, both cars but different still.

Second, Apple was invented by Steve Wozniak, and Ronald Wayne, especially Wozniak, he did most of the coding and he is the man "underneath". Steve Jobs (like Bill Gates) is just a commercial guy -- he is the reason why they got famous and he was the one who took the company in a new direction.

Third, Steve Jobs is a wacko. He travels to distant places just so he can smoke weed... and I hate his turtleneck black sweaters... does he ever wash it? Hes been wearing that ever since he came back to Apple after leaving in the late 80's.

Fourth, I love Apple. It is futuristic and it aims to provide good quality products (we have been seeing the bad side of apple for a while in the media now) and they never seem to amaze with their next line of products.

[BuffaloHelp]

Gammmae105, on 18 April 2010 - 03:17 AM, said:

Why is it that the iPhone is finger-sensitive and the NDS is pressure sensitive? Can one or the other really call itself a "touch-screen"? Just wanted to know what you guys thought.
In my opinion, the iPhone should have both touchscreen capabilities(finger and pressure-sensitivity). What do you guys think?

I would imagine each company felt their technology/method is/was better for their products. When I work with optics project we had to decide between CCD and CMOS. At the end it came to hybrid of CMOS and our own hardware.

I believe this is just the beginning of touchscreen technology. In just short years we'll see even greater touch computing and multiple touch/gesture devices. I saw a remote operating robotic arms that actually gave pressure feedback to a surgeon using reverse touch technology--causes fingers to feel small bumps and pushing forces embedded inside gloves.

[deadmad7]

BuffaloHelp, on 16 August 2010 - 04:13 AM, said:

I would imagine each company felt their technology/method is/was better for their products. When I work with optics project we had to decide between CCD and CMOS. At the end it came to hybrid of CMOS and our own hardware.

I believe this is just the beginning of touchscreen technology. In just short years we'll see even greater touch computing and multiple touch/gesture devices. I saw a remote operating robotic arms that actually gave pressure feedback to a surgeon using reverse touch technology--causes fingers to feel small bumps and pushing forces embedded inside gloves.

Aw man! This is ONLY the beginning of "Touch" technology? I thought we could FINALLY move on to the Mind Control technology we have seeing since the 80's iMind, iControl, meAndroid, htControl or whatever its going to called... i would rather end with the touch screens that are here right now! Well, actually i would like that Touch thing that they have Iron Man, Criminal Minds and those high tech offices commercial where there is a computer screen like a glass and its completely transparent and then they have like Bio data of the criminal on it/tony stark as the blueprint of iron man suits? And they touch it and then a little "wave" comes out? That would be cool! But are those possible? And if they are, when could we see the first prototypes of them? 5 years or 20 years or something like that?

[zanzibarjones]

deadmad7, on 16 August 2010 - 01:53 PM, said:

Aw man! This is ONLY the beginning of "Touch" technology? I thought we could FINALLY move on to the Mind Control technology we have seeing since the 80's iMind, iControl, meAndroid, htControl or whatever its going to called... i would rather end with the touch screens that are here right now! Well, actually i would like that Touch thing that they have Iron Man, Criminal Minds and those high tech offices commercial where there is a computer screen like a glass and its completely transparent and then they have like Bio data of the criminal on it/tony stark as the blueprint of iron man suits? And they touch it and then a little "wave" comes out? That would be cool! But are those possible? And if they are, when could we see the first prototypes of them? 5 years or 20 years or something like that?

The beginning of touch technology. So funny to hear people say that, like Apple invented it. They didn't, they stole it just like they stole everything else. They just have a killer marketing team. That is the only difference.

Touch screen devices have been around for a while. First in POS in stores, then in hand held devices like the Palms and pocket PCs. I have been using them since early 2000s. So yes I agree that it is in it's infancy and can progress greatly, but let's not kid ourselves. It's been around for a while.

[deadmad7]

zanzibarjones, on 16 August 2010 - 08:18 PM, said:

The beginning of touch technology. So funny to hear people say that, like Apple invented it. They didn't, they stole it just like they stole everything else. They just have a killer marketing team. That is the only difference.

Read correctly, i didn't mention that Apple invented it. I just said it as a "general" way like its just starting. And they didn't "steal" it, there hasn't been just usable touch screen platforms like iPhone and iTouch and iPad ever before. If ANYBODY else made such a great device, im sure they would have stolen the spotlight, for example Google or Microsoft. And its not always about the marketing, its more about the word of mouth with these kinds of things and those sleek looks.

Quote

Touch screen devices have been around for a while. First in POS in stores, then in hand held devices like the Palms and pocket PCs. I have been using them since early 2000s. So yes I agree that it is in it's infancy and can progress greatly, but let's not kid ourselves. It's been around for a while.

I have even used the first Palm Pilot which was made in 1996 and all the way upto the iPhone 4 releases last month, so i know what I'm talking about.. most of the time.

[zanzibarjones]

deadmad7, on 17 August 2010 - 01:32 PM, said:

Read correctly, i didn't mention that Apple invented it. I just said it as a "general" way like its just starting. And they didn't "steal" it, there hasn't been just usable touch screen platforms like iPhone and iTouch and iPad ever before. If ANYBODY else made such a great device, im sure they would have stolen the spotlight, for example Google or Microsoft. And its not always about the marketing, its more about the word of mouth with these kinds of things and those sleek looks.


I have even used the first Palm Pilot which was made in 1996 and all the way upto the iPhone 4 releases last month, so i know what I'm talking about.. most of the time.

I agree with you, and please forgive me, I was not saying you said they invented it, it's just that's the mentality of those who use the iphone and think that apple invented it. It's that whole, mac is better than God attitude.

Yes, the palm was a sweet object at the time. And they could have really gone far, but I guess a slick marketing team is all it take these days to make a company worth anything. Look at Geico....