10 replies to this topic

[zanzibarjones]

I was thinking about wind the other day and how we can feel it but not see it.
I was thinking about 2 examples of this, one, you are driving down the road, put your hand out of the window and feel the force of the wind pushing against your hand.
The other example of was thinking about, was putting your hand in the air, putting a straw in your mouth and blowing air onto your hand. You can see the air hitting your skin and created an indentation.

So then I started thinking, what do those air molecules look like. Are they round or odd shaped (changing shape 3d dimensionally)

So here is my theory.
If those molecules are round, what is in between them. You could look at that like this. Take a bunch of marbles and put them into a jar. You can see the marbles are bumping up against each other, but what is in the space between the marbles.

The I was thinking if they are odd shaped, then you could take marbles that were made of jello, and put them into a jar, and you would see no space inbetween each of them, because they would change to fit against the other marbles.

What if molecules were odd shaped like the jello marbles. What if you could stop them in their tracks with some sort of electric charge. Could you them be able to truly make a force filed. It would be a wall of those odd shaped, and changing marbles.

Any I making an sense?

[Bikerman]

OK - there is no 'air molecule'. Air is a mix, not a chemical compound. It has molecules of oxygen which look a bit like this:

Nitrogen, CO2, Helium and so on.
What is between the molecules is other molecules. Where they do not fit together exactly there is nothing*


*This is a simplistic picture of course. What we know at the more cutting-edge level is that molecules, atoms, particles - they are all 'ripples' in a quantum field (similar to a magnetic field). These ripples sometimes are curled-up into things we call particles. This is the advanced level picture, though, and it requires a knowledge of quantum physics....

[mahesh2k]

Correct me if i'm wrong on this one. The force field which is shown in the science fiction movie or animes have magnetic field. Is it right to assume that ? But then again if we're using magnetic field as field how come that will avoid bombs and bullets ? Just thinking on these lines. I don't know if this just BS or has any good base behind their assumption.

[Bikerman]

mahesh2k, on 21 August 2010 - 08:26 PM, said:

Correct me if i'm wrong on this one. The force field which is shown in the science fiction movie or animes have magnetic field. Is it right to assume that ? But then again if we're using magnetic field as field how come that will avoid bombs and bullets ? Just thinking on these lines. I don't know if this just BS or has any good base behind their assumption.

Like this you mean?

[anwiii]

Bikerman, on 21 August 2010 - 10:56 PM, said:

Like this you mean?

interesting video! i never heard of it before. that is not the force field that we were talking about though haha. it's just a system that can take out an anti tank missle with 360 degree coverage through radar, tracking, and deploying something at the missle to detonate it before it hits the tank. i am still unclear exactly what is deployed though and how it is deployed. at the same time, it is my understanding that they aren't using these devices in real combat yet because it becomes ineffective with every case scenario to save lives in a small radius war zone. in any case, it was a very interesting video....

[Bikerman]

or do you think...maybe....just possibly...it might be a spoof....?

I think Plasma shield/window is the closest we have or are likely to have for a while

Edited by Bikerman, 22 August 2010 - 12:20 AM.

[zanzibarjones]

Man I love stirring up trouble.

@bikerman, there has to be 'something' in between the molecules... I mean there can't be just nothing. Nothing, as a thing, does not exist. There is always something, everywhere regardless of how small or insignificant.

So with that in mind, don't you think, even in the littlest bit, that it may be possible?

How else do you explain the feeling of force from you blowing on your hand? If you can feel it, you should be able to stop it right? Or at least stop it in it's tracks.

I look at it like this, I can't see the air, but i can feel it against my skin, see the results of it blowing through the trees. but some could argue, well you can feel gravity, doesn't mean you can stop it from happening. True. I can see the effects it has on objects, and yes I can feel it from the force an object induces from me holding it, it's weight.

But gravity isn't made of particles. Gravity just is.
Air though IS made of particles, something tangible, therefore i should be able to, through some sort of means, halt these particles from moving. They are already suspended in their spots, unless moved by object going through them or other means.

[Bikerman]

zanzibarjones, on 23 August 2010 - 03:21 AM, said:

Man I love stirring up trouble.

@bikerman, there has to be 'something' in between the molecules... I mean there can't be just nothing. Nothing, as a thing, does not exist. There is always something, everywhere regardless of how small or insignificant.

Why? Because you say so?
If you want a fuller explanation then I can give one but the physics starts to get complex. At the lowest scales everything exists as fields - non-material and very much like your idea of a force field. There is the electromagnetic field, the gravitational field and the proposed Higgs field. These all interact to produce what we see as solid atoms, tables, people and the rest of the visible universe. Where there are disturbances or 'ripples' in the field then you get mass - 'stuff'. Those ripples are affected by the fields to give them mass, charge and the other quantitative stuff that all matter has.

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So with that in mind, don't you think, even in the littlest bit, that it may be possible?

I didn't say anything was impossible - I never do. I say that it is quite possible, but that we haven't yet done it.

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How else do you explain the feeling of force from you blowing on your hand? If you can feel it, you should be able to stop it right? Or at least stop it in it's tracks.

That is simply the pressure of molecules of air pushing on your hand. Stop the molecules and you stop the feeling - a piece of cardboard will normally do the job.

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I look at it like this, I can't see the air, but i can feel it against my skin, see the results of it blowing through the trees. but some could argue, well you can feel gravity, doesn't mean you can stop it from happening. True. I can see the effects it has on objects, and yes I can feel it from the force an object induces from me holding it, it's weight.

That is a nonsense argument based on two logical fallacies.
a) Begging the question. It does not follow that because something is perceptible that it can be neutralised. In fact we know that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed.
b ) False generalisation. Just because two entities or phenomena share one characteristic (they cannot be seen) does not mean that they share others.

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But gravity isn't made of particles. Gravity just is.
Air though IS made of particles, something tangible, therefore i should be able to, through some sort of means, halt these particles from moving. They are already suspended in their spots, unless moved by object going through them or other means.

Gravity IS made of particles according to quantum physics - and remember, at the ultimate scale EVERYTHING is just fields.

Edited by Bikerman, 28 August 2010 - 04:26 PM.

[dab]

I enjoyed reading this, made lot of things sort of click I suppose. I didn't know that everything was a wave, which really changes my perspective on Chemistry.. I hated that class.

In regards to this force field, that Trophy thing seemed to just send radio frequencies to the missile to make it think it was hitting (with conjunction of a magnet). So not really a forcefield as we are hypothesizing in this thread.

The idea of a forcefield seems very unlikely to be possible due to the fact that if you were able to create it, then you must be able to destroy it or break it. Ie: Diamond. You can create the shape, meaning it isn't indestructible. Just an example.

So creating a "forcefield" using anything wouldn't be much better than building a wall of diamond or something of equal toughness.

Just my 2 cents.

[eInfiniti]

I don't know much about quantum mechanics. Maybe I should have. Maybe I should study it in the future. I guess it is a high level of understanding of what is going on in the world, in which there is field everywhere, mass or other stuff exists as ripples in the field, ... ...

At a lower level, you would have air molecules flying around. They are extremely tiny in size. There is space, or micro voids, between the molecules. The air molecules are almost free to fly everywhere. Therefore, the micro voids change their shapes all the time. How much they change has to do with what you do to the air. Of course, quantum mechanics suggests that there are fields in those voids. Voids don't mean nothing.

At a still still lower level, air is considered a compressible fluid. This is a macro-level of understanding. Air is considered as a continuous fluid. When it is blown past something, it will hit it, change its direction, and get around it if there is a path to allow to. That is why one can feel it. Air is highly compressible. So, when you pump more and more air into a bottle (with pressure), its density increases or the air molecules are packed denser if you look at it at a different level.

Yes, you can do something to air to control where it goes. It is virtually impossible to stop the movement of air molecules.

That is the way I look at the subject. I think what is more important is that Physics as a science needs to come up with a reasonable theory about gravity. If it is a field, then we need the capability to measure whatever is in the field, not the simple fact that everything falls toward the ground. We need a way to change or remove the gravitational field on earth.